Who is Killing The Snooker Cue Making Industrial in UK?

[snookaman]

Who is killing the snooker cue making industry in UK?

Some people blame the Americans!

The British invented snooker; the Americans invented pool. With smaller table, bigger balls, and thicker cues, the American pool are more popular nowadays. To survive in a deminishing market, many big snooker cue making firms had moved their production lines to Thailand and started making hugh profit. Now these Thailand cue makers have become their major competitors.

Some people blame the Chinese!

The Chinese made snooker cues flooded the market with affordable cues at a cost of about GBP50 or a cue set for less than GBP100. The "average" cue quality has dropped drastically, and beginners can seldom find a suitable cue to play with and become very frustrated. To an extent, they give up the game totally and move on to American pool.

Some people blame the internet!

Many people are buying from the internet instead of taking the trouble and going to a snooker pro-shop to select a suitable cue. The snooker pro-shops generally have declined in sales by at least 60% and are starting to stock less. This puts more pressure to the manufacturers and cue makers in UK. Many of them cannot survive and close their business. Thus lesser and lesser people are willing to enter the cue making profession.

Furthermore, there are many "phantom" British cue makers in the internet. They are selling you Chinese made cues, pretending that these cues are made in England. You can never find their workshop in UK.

I have no conclusion yet. Can anyone give me more feedback on this topic please?

[trevs1]

I don't know whether anything is 'killing' the UK cue industry as such, but it has changed over a number of years for sure.

I'm positive it's NOT the Americans though, they get wrongly blamed for enough as it is.

It's true to say that a certain amount of UK based makers DO import cues from outside the UK and finish them as their own, that's a fact. BUT, whether this is causing a problem, or, aiding the UK makers is a little more tricky to define.

An enormous proportion of the cues on Ebay or the like are NOT made in the UK as they state, of that I'm fairly sure, but the makers and sellers of these cues know that 'UK made' items sell better and arguably for more money than their Far East counterparts, so it's easy to see why it's done. I can't speak for these cues individually, as I've not got any experience with them, but as the old rule says, you perhaps get what you pay for.

The thing is with these cues is that there's little if any backup with them, so if someone encounters a problem with a cue, it's unlikely you'd be able to get that resolved by the people who 'really' made it. It can no doubt be sorted by a UK based maker or cue doctor, but that can cost as much as the cue itself, depending on who and where you take it to and what needs doing. The end result of this can be a cheap cue that has ended up costing closer to a much more expensive, and, possibly better quality cue and that can be uncomfortable to live with.

My view on cues (and granted, I may be biased in that view) is this.........

Do it right in the first place and do it once.

If you buy a decent quality cue in the beginning, it should last you a lifetime. If it's from a 'good' UK based maker, there is more chance that if any problem did occur, they would sort it for you totally free of charge, quickly and efficiently. Also, you are more likely to feel secure in using such a cue from beginner to imtermediate standard, and who knows, you could well stck with it for good and never change it. Many of the people I know who have bought a cheaper alternative have eventually bought another cue of a higher quality, so have ended up buying twice or more, and, have had to experience a change of cue which can lead to issues in itself.

I DO understand that we ALL have budgets, so we have to be careful how we choose to spend our money, BUT, if the thinking of 'Do it right and do it once' is kept in mind, perhaps more players would feel MORE comfortable with their cues for far longer and spend much less over the long term.

I wonder how many of you reading this have bought more than 3 cues over the time you have been playing and can relate exactly to what I am saying.

Also, how many of you now wish you'd bought the last cue you own in the first place?

It would be interesting to know.

[keith auld]

I wholeheartedly endorse everything the Trevs has said in his thread - if you read through the 'Baffling News' threads on the forum you'll see that I had occasion to deal with this particular problem recently when asked to do similar repairs to 3 cues all bearing different names all clearly from the same source as 2 had identical splciing and the third whilst the splicing on the butt was different, the splice lengths were identical as were the joints and all had been sold to the customer complete with aluminum case small and long extensions (which is a trademark of the 'JX' company on ebay), whats more all these cues were technically perfect which tends to point to the fact that they were all made from a computer based manufacturing base (in the far east?) that replocates to a finite level that handmade cues don't (no 2 handmade cues are the same - even from the same maker - that's the beauty of them), furthermore the joint used is technically so far advanced that the tooling required to produce this joint would be beyond the means of the small individual cuemaker.
Flash websites and creative photography lull the unwary customer and false claims of 'Handmade' and 'Made in England' abound throughout the trade, I wish I knew the answer, I'm just sorry for those who have been duped by the unscrupulous mavericks around

[archalf1471]

Also, how many of you now wish you'd bought the last cue you own in the first place?

Yes...... but you weren't around when Queen Victoria was Trev!!!!!!

[trevs1]

Also, how many of you now wish you'd bought the last cue you own in the first place?

Yes...... but you weren't around when Queen Victoria was Trev!!!!!!

Hahaha, I like it.

As always Nick, you have an interesting perspective on issues, presented in your own inimitable style, class.

I would have thought that on your deathbed, the thing you'll be sorry to leave behind the most, is all those cues you've not yet got the chance to try or get made.

Am I wrong????????????????????.............ha.

[archalf1471]

i would have thought after next friday there will be very few cues I won't have tried as you turn up in your boy racing beemer with a trailer in tow full to the brim of TW cues as Mike and I pay for your next holiday, house, car, etc etc etc etc.................Come on the Irish!!!!!

[poolqjunkie]

Is the UK makers really being killed?
I am a firm believer that there is always room for the very best. Perhaps the ones that are killed are just not good enough so they get replaced, be it a Chinese, American, or Thai cue maker.
The American cue making market is also suffering from the Chinese import and the advanced technology they process, along with the low production cost they bear. I think a lot of so-so custom cue makers will go out of business really soon, because thier cues are just not competitive enough, both in regard to workmanship and price. But this only applies to the low and medium range cues, in my opinion. A high end American pool cue is a piece of art in its own right, and there will always be collectors and players who have the appreciation for the finer things to buy them.
I suppose the same thing would apply to the UK. Most Uk snooker cues are not that expensive compared to American pool cues. (A pool cue can easily go beyond $2000 US if it is custom. A $3000+ cue is not uncommon. Even a production cue can be $1000+) So, the difference between a custom UK cue and one that is imported is really not so big if you compare that to the gap in the pool cue industry bewteen these two.
In that sense, the deciding factor for a Uk or import snooker cue in my opinion is not really the cost as much as the quality of the cue, and the service and reputation.
If you give me a Thai cue and a UK made cue and I notice that the Thai cue has better wood, more even splicing, better hit, better finish, nicer wood...etc. then I would buy the Thai cue, and the price is not the deciding factor. For me and a lot of people, I am sure a couple more pounds is not going to break the person's bank. So, it all comes back to the quality.
The best UK cue makers, I am sure, will be able to build cues that are far better than the import production cues. To spend a few more hundred pounds is not really such a big deal if one get get something that he is really proud of, and is really satisfied with.
Will the Asian companies be able to produce top quality snooker cues? I think so.
So far, they seem to be targeting on the production market. Perhaps what they lack is innovation. They are very good at copying, not so good at coming up with something innovative. In my opinion. But you have an innovative idea that you want them to build for you, I think they will be able to do it, because they process the technology.
If they can offer a branch office in the UK to take care of follow up services, and take the time to do real specific custom works, then they will really become a competitive force to theaten even the high end custom UK makers.
Even then, I believe there is still room for the very best--but not the mid range guys.

[snookaman]

Is the UK makers really being killed?
I am a firm believer that there is always room for the very best. Perhaps the ones that are killed are just not good enough so they get replaced, be it a Chinese, American, or Thai cue maker.
The American cue making market is also suffering from the Chinese import and the advanced technology they process, along with the low production cost they bear. I think a lot of so-so custom cue makers will go out of business really soon, because thier cues are just not competitive enough, both in regard to workmanship and price. But this only applies to the low and medium range cues, in my opinion. A high end American pool cue is a piece of art in its own right, and there will always be collectors and players who have the appreciation for the finer things to buy them.
I suppose the same thing would apply to the UK. Most Uk snooker cues are not that expensive compared to American pool cues. (A pool cue can easily go beyond $2000 US if it is custom. A $3000+ cue is not uncommon. Even a production cue can be $1000+) So, the difference between a custom UK cue and one that is imported is really not so big if you compare that to the gap in the pool cue industry bewteen these two.
In that sense, the deciding factor for a Uk or import snooker cue in my opinion is not really the cost as much as the quality of the cue, and the service and reputation.
If you give me a Thai cue and a UK made cue and I notice that the Thai cue has better wood, more even splicing, better hit, better finish, nicer wood...etc. then I would buy the Thai cue, and the price is not the deciding factor. For me and a lot of people, I am sure a couple more pounds is not going to break the person's bank. So, it all comes back to the quality.
The best UK cue makers, I am sure, will be able to build cues that are far better than the import production cues. To spend a few more hundred pounds is not really such a big deal if one get get something that he is really proud of, and is really satisfied with.
Will the Asian companies be able to produce top quality snooker cues? I think so.
So far, they seem to be targeting on the production market. Perhaps what they lack is innovation. They are very good at copying, not so good at coming up with something innovative. In my opinion. But you have an innovative idea that you want them to build for you, I think they will be able to do it, because they process the technology.
If they can offer a branch office in the UK to take care of follow up services, and take the time to do real specific custom works, then they will really become a competitive force to theaten even the high end custom UK makers.
Even then, I believe there is still room for the very best--but not the mid range guys.

Hi Poolqjunkie,

Thank you for your response. You have raised some good points.

Right, there is collector's market in the US for pool sticks. For snooker, a GBP500 cue is probably belongs to the high-end categories. Price higher than this are for richie-rich who spends the money on 4 spices rare wood, such as snakewood or Thuyer Burr. However, there is no resale market for these products.

For those Thailand and China made cues, they look good but never build and feel like a "real" custom cue from a renown cue maker. My 3/4 jointed John Parris is "spear" shape - narrower near the joint. The shaft is so smooth that you do not feel the bumps at the chevrons. Balance point is near the 17" from the butt. On the other hand, the specifications for some China and Thailand made cues are not correct! When they claim the balance point at 17", they actually are at 16" that is really a lot!

A good snooker cue is actually an instrument, especially when you are playing on a tournament grade 12' table with narrow jaws (it is only slightly easier for open jaws).

If you do read, you will find that almost all books clearly stated that you need only one cue. It is an extention of your arm. If you change cue too often, it will affect your performance. Some books recommend beginners to start will a 10mm cue and move on to a smaller tips at different levels.

[ADR147]

ok lets see what we have here.

Who is killing the snooker cue making industry in UK?

Some people blame the Americans!

The British invented snooker; the Americans invented pool. With smaller table, bigger balls, and thicker cues, the American pool are more popular nowadays. To survive in a deminishing market, many big snooker cue making firms had moved their production lines to Thailand and started making hugh profit. Now these Thailand cue makers have become their major competitors. snooker was invented in india by the british yes although nobody knows exactly by who!! the americans did not invent pool i have played pool on a table in france older than the usa and mary queen of scots played pool while in the tower of london in 1580 something! she was even wrapped in the cover after she was executed. regardless americans have no bearing whatsoever on cue making in the uk


Some people blame the Chinese!
these cues are not aimed at the same market as uk cue makers really and sofar i have never seen a good cue from china, thailand on the other hand produces some great cues but then they are not a lot cheaper than uk made cues anymore the price of a thai cue has tripled since i first imported them.

Ebay
umm ebay is a mine field the trouble is that people don't really know how to shop on ebay if you buy from a good seller like my humble self or welshpool you will get good service and genuine products but there are of course plenty of people who are happy to screw the buyers to make a few extra quid as we always say if it looks too good to be true then it is - you do get what you pay for.

Right, there is collector's market in the US for pool sticks. For snooker, a GBP500 cue is probably belongs to the high-end categories. Price higher than this are for richie-rich who spends the money on 4 spices rare wood, such as snakewood or Thuyer Burr. However, there is no resale market for these products. i sell cues like this every single day there is always a market for them, plenty of mikerusselitis sufferers out there (hi nick!)

For those Thailand and China made cues, they look good but never build and feel like a "real" custom cue from a renown cue maker. My 3/4 jointed John Parris is "spear" shape - narrower near the joint. The shaft is so smooth that you do not feel the dumps at the chevrons. Balance point is near the 17" from the butt. On the other hand, the specifications for some China and Thailand made cues are not correct! When they claim the balance point at 17", they actually are at 16" that is really a lot!
thailand and china should not be lumped together here, the top thai cues from o'min, mastercue etc are as good as anyone can make them anyone who tells you they are not good quality has never seen one or has an agenda, the only thing i can say is put an o'min next to a parris with no badge on either and play the game with them i would not want to place any money on the outcome!

A good snooker cue is actually an instrument
yes and like an instrument the skill is in the player more than the played!

[ADR147]

i would have thought after next friday there will be very few cues I won't have tried as you turn up in your boy racing beemer with a trailer in tow full to the brim of TW cues as Mike and I pay for your next holiday, house, car, etc etc etc etc.................Come on the Irish!!!!!

not sure how many cues are going to fit in his new porsche!!

[snookaman]

Hi ADR147,

Thank you very much for your response. Some valid points there.

However, I've tried O' Min in a snooker Parlour. I owned a Thailand made Dunns and 2 China made cues, an Acuerate and a MA. I would classified them as slim taper cues. Balance point is never match with that mentioned in their specifications, always an inch or so behind. Besides, you can feel the bumps along the shaft at the chevron points. They are OK when you are a beginner. When you move up the ladder and serious about snooker, you better give them away or totally forget about them.

If I had not spent money on these cues, I could have enough money to buy an Ultimate cue by John Parris rather than settling for a Regal! Right?

[Deiseboy]

thailand and china should not be lumped together here, the top thai cues from o'min, mastercue etc are as good as anyone can make them anyone who tells you they are not good quality has never seen one or has an agenda, the only thing i can say is put an o'min next to a parris with no badge on either and play the game with them i would not want to place any money on the outcome!

[/COLOR]

Have to agree here, I met Ukrit from Mastercue in Thailand at the world championships and a friend got him to custom make a cue for him. Took around 6 weeks but was worth the wait. Put his other handmade cue away straight away and hasn't looked back.
I also looked at O'Min cues and Zen Cues out there and they were all impressive.

[snookaman]

Have to agree here, I met Ukrit from Mastercue in Thailand at the world championships and a friend got him to custom make a cue for him. Took around 6 weeks but was worth the wait. Put his other handmade cue away straight away and hasn't looked back.
I also looked at O'Min cues and Zen Cues out there and they were all impressive.

Hi Deiseboy,

Thank you for your information.
I had had enough; I don't want to take the risk and frustration!

[poolqjunkie]

If you buy a Thai cue such as Unique these day, you will get even splicings. The work is usually quite good. The shaft wood will also feature tight grains and nice chevrons. Hit is subjective, but workmanship wise, I am not sure if I would choose a John Parris over a Unique.
A freind of mine has a Master cue. It is very very very stiff. I would say much stiffer than a John Parris.
I do not know about Dunn or where they were made. Never seen one. But the other Thia cues I have seen are outstanding in my opinion. Even if the price is about the same, I may still choose a Thai cue over a UK made cue. It is hard to say. I guess would depends on the look, and the way it plays.
Buying a cue sight unseen is always kind of a gamble anyway.

[Deiseboy]

Have to agree some of them are very stiff but you have to specifiy otherwise when ordering. Saying that Mastercue knew this cue was for a top Irish player and him using it would build thier name in Ireland, which it has. They had the advantage of inspecting his old cue at the time to copy off it which helped.
Since then I have got in more cues from them and am very happy with them all. Your bound to get one or two bad ones in an order but that would be the same with any company I suspect.