bad cues

[poolqjunkie]

Had I had an engineering lathe and the knowledge Mick Rees has with cue joints, then this cue could have been finished in 1 day and fine finished and polished the next. I now deal exclusively with a major US cue accessory company and will get all my
adhesives and finishing products from them, so this turnaround is possible if an emergency arrives.

Thank you for your reply.

You dont install your own joints, why?

Do you mean to say you do not have a lathe and the knowledge to install a joint? What about the SD joint? I dont understand.

I am a bit confused, are you saying you can finish a cue in one day, from scratch?

How do you prevent your wood from warpage? Are you using super glue to glue your parts (I dont see how else you can do what you said you can in 12 hours if you need to wait for the adhensive to set)? How do you make certain they will hold in the long run, especially between metal and wood?

[keith auld]

Answers herewith:-

(1) I don't install my own joints (even though I have done so in the past), (a) because someone else is better at doing so than me, handmakes all the joints individually from brass bar on the very latest machines (his main job is making engines for McClaren race cars), fits them and weights the cues before fitting them and balancing them to order at a price I couldn't compete with if I was to do it myself and even buying in cheap SD joints that had been knocked out on a capstan lathe

(2) Yes, I can finish a cue from scratch in a day using cascamite/polymite glue (if you were to have attended any of my previous cumaking workshops you would have had the opportunity to have seen for yourself)

(3) See above for adhevies used and the fact that wood and metal aren't combined until the joint is fitted - as for warpage - if you buy quality boards that are stable, or have already warped a bit following kiln drying, they aren'y going to move anymore. If you then cut out the bend from the square that you cut from the board to prepare your taper, that will never move again as it has already gone as far as it would in it's natural drying state, once a straight taper has been cut from that, you'll have a cue that remains straight. I could go into great detail about how people who purchase round 'Ash' (not Maple) turned blanks in the belief that they are producing the best when they hand splice from there, then find at some later date that there is considerable movement; but I really haven't the time at the moment and it'll take us down another road and topic altogether

[archalf1471]

i can't see how you could "finish" a cue to the standard that i would demand ( and that's not being arrogant or flash or bolshy just a fact that i am a fussy customer when i spend a few hundred quid on a cue) in one day.....I ain't having it

[poolqjunkie]

if you buy quality boards that are stable, or have already warped a bit following kiln drying, they aren'y going to move anymore. If you then cut out the bend from the square that you cut from the board to prepare your taper, that will never move again as it has already gone as far as it would in it's natural drying state, once a straight taper has been cut from that, you'll have a cue that remains straight.

Thank you for the reply. I am sorry but I am still confused.

You said the wood will not move again. What if the cue is sent to a place which has a higher humidity than where you are? Will the wood that has gone as far as it would in its natural (which is in relation to local climate I would assume) drying state absorbs moisture and move again?

How do you know the wood has gone as far as it would in its natural drying stage anyway?

What about internal stress in the wood? Do you think turning your square into the final taper in one day may cause problem?

I see that you are saying you send a lot of cues to Asia, which is warmer with a high humidity and usually has indoor air conditioning, what precaution do you take in your one day cue building to prevent the cue from warpage?

The wood glue you suggested needs some time to reach its full strength--just cannot really see how you can glue all the splicings together, turn them and have them all done in one day without any problem.

Are the splices on your cues all even when they are completed in one day?

Thank you.

[Qubit]

The wood glue you suggested needs some time to reach its full strength--just cannot really see how you can glue all the splicings together, turn them and have them all done in one day without any problem.

Are the splices on your cues all even when they are completed in one day?

Thank you.

Must confess to being a little confused myself - ive used cascamite a bit when doing some splice work and ive always left it 24hrs to be sure the bond is at 100% strength. I wouldn't do anything less than 12 hours though myself (in normal drying conditions), and that doesnt leave an awful lot of time for the rest of the work to be done! Mind you, im certainly no expert!

[keith auld]

Hi - there are far to many things here to go through - perhaps I should have said in my previous reply - IN MY OPINION - this can go on forever to -ing and fro-ing - one thing you keep referring to is turning - whilst you may turn everything in Canada - I don't make cues that way and never have - if you look at my earlier thread you'll see I refer to handplane - that is how all my shfts are made - from square - no lathe - no turning. The only turning I do is the 16" cue butt for 3/4 cues.

[keith auld]

Hi Qubit - as I said in the first thread to this lot
' out of curiosity I wanted to calculate this very same question. In the past I've always left at least 12 hours between splicing and as I splice 2 at a time then that would account for 2 days then add cutting the cue from a plank, measuring and cutting the taper, handplaning the square taper to a round tapered pole, all this before splicing ! - Well this particular customer wanted a 3/4 cue with 16" ebony butt, spliced with 10" green dyed maple splice together with cocobola. I had this done and the photographs cropped and downloaded to him, showing every element of the build by 7pm that evening. The process I followed was exactly that mentioned above except that I also had to turn the ebony butt and splice it. '

As for curing - the cue has to go to London for jointing - this means at least an overnight service - yes - all the points are level - this comes from the accuracy of planing, not the glue factor.

[keith auld]

Hi alchalf1471 - if cues can be made by one person in one day and be perfect - which we'll see when this cue gets reviewed - then it's going to make a mockery of those who say you can't have your cue for 4 months - maybe they'yy begin to think they're being ripped off - anyway lets hope you can make it to Shanghai in October and you'll see it happen then - I have agreed to a number of requests from forum members to come and watch me make cues over the next few months, and if you're interested, and I can fit you in you're more than wecome to come and watch, everything made by hand, in a day !!!

[Oldgit]

Over the years I have seen plenty of Hunt & Obyrne cues as well as Will Hunt cues. I have seen three different sorts of joints on the above three quarter joined cues. The early 'Hunt & Obyrne' Green badge cues I believe were actually made by Aeon Cues and the joints that I have seen on them had a longish 'male' peg that screwed in to the female join. Then I have seen black badged Hunt & Obyrne cues with joints identical to the present day joints used by Robert Osborne (and Will Hunt) and lastly there are the joints that I would say are mid-way between the above. I have a Will Hunt cue at the moment that was made by Will when he worked by himself after H&O ended and the joint has a smaller male 'peg'.

Which of the above joints were the ones made by the McLaren racing guy?

Oldgit

[keith auld]

Hi (I don't like to refer to you as 'Olgit' - but from one odgit to another - hi) - Mick Rees used to make all of the joints you refer to in the 'black Badged Cues' - he made them for both Will and myself at the same time. Robert Osborne got to know Mick when he was my apprentice and subsequently when he went on his own approached Mick and asked him to make his joints as well. Mick also used to make the 'Spirolk' quick release joint for Will that Robert and Will continued to use when working together, although they had it copied and fitted it themselves. I meanwhile have continued to use Mick and up until now have stayed with the same joint, but just recently he has remodeled the 9mm joint he used to use for both of use in the centre joint cues with the stainless steel pin, into a 10mm to give it strength, which will now appear in all my jointed cue range, and the same 10mm joint without the pin, in the bottom of the butt

[poolqjunkie]

Hi - there are far to many things here to go through - perhaps I should have said in my previous reply - IN MY OPINION - this can go on forever to -ing and fro-ing - one thing you keep referring to is turning - whilst you may turn everything in Canada - I don't make cues that way and never have - if you look at my earlier thread you'll see I refer to handplane - that is how all my shfts are made - from square - no lathe - no turning. The only turning I do is the 16" cue butt for 3/4 cues.

I see. I have changed my question as follows, thank you.

if you buy quality boards that are stable, or have already warped a bit following kiln drying, they aren'y going to move anymore. If you then cut out the bend from the square that you cut from the board to prepare your taper, that will never move again as it has already gone as far as it would in it's natural drying state, once a straight taper has been cut from that, you'll have a cue that remains straight.

You said the wood will not move again. What if the cue is sent to a place which has a higher humidity than where you are? Will the wood that has gone as far as it would in its natural (which is in relation to local climate I would assume) drying state absorbs moisture and move again?

How do you know the wood has gone as far as it would in its natural drying stage anyway?

What about internal stress in the wood? Do you think hand planing your square into the final taper in one day may cause problem?

I see that you are saying you send a lot of cues to Asia, which is warmer with a high humidity and usually has indoor air conditioning, what precaution do you take in your one day cue building to prevent the cue from warpage?

(2) Yes, I can finish a cue from scratch in a day using cascamite/polymite glue (if you were to have attended any of my previous cumaking workshops you would have had the opportunity to have seen for yourself)

The wood glue you suggested needs some time to reach its full strength--just cannot really see how you can glue all the splicings together, turn them and have them all done in one day without any problem.

I have never tried hand planning, but I would imagine you still should give the wood sometime between each hand planning stage, rather than going from a square right down to a 9.5mm shaft, no?

Another question: why are you sending the cue to London to have a joint fitted rather than doing it yourself? I know you have explained it by saying because you do not have the knowledge of Mike and the lathe he has...but if Will Hunt and everyone else are all doing their own joints, is having Mike doing yours clearly going to make your cue better? I just cannot see how a joint can make such a big difference, provided that it is properly installed.

This will not go on forever, I just want to understand what you were saying, just looking for some clarification, that is all. Thank you so much for your patience.

[archalf1471]

no i think i will pass on the idea of shanghi. which i think everyone has now got the gist of. it would not make financially good sense to me to go half way across the world to watch an average cuemaker make an average cue when I can go to south wales and have a brilliant cuemaker make me a brilliant cue, have some lunch, chat and then use it to beat his rude celtic arse all round the club and be home in time for dinner...Marvellous!!!!!!

[keith auld]

Hi Poolqjunkie - I'm sorry I can't keep on going round in circles like this - I've explained myself as clearly as possible and given enough time to this - my suggestion is to read through everything I've said so far and if you can't find the answer, then regretably it'll have to stay that way

[keith auld]

Hi Archalf - then go west my boy - go west !!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[ADR147]

Well, I for one would merrily stand shoulder to shoulder with ANYONE in making a cue using the methods you state Keith, no problem whatsoever.

By the way, I have something to discuss with you, is it ok to PM you in a moment?

Ta.

i would be happy to run the book on this event