Keith Auld Cue Review

[Burwat Champ]

Hi Leslie (Burwat Champ) - does that keep up the good work also apply to me do the alterations to your cue that has just arrived for work on it this morning?

Hi Keith,

My name is Tony not Leslie, I feel you have me confused with another forum member who may have a similar name, I have seen a Burwat Champion and a Burwat Champ 147.

Trevor has my cue....

But I have seen one of your cues and was very impressed with it so I say to you also 'keep up the good work'

[keith auld]

Sorry - easy to get the 2 pseudonyms mixed up - thanks for the good wishes anyway

[Paulie]

The good thing about a forum like this is due to the size of the industry as a whole we are blessed that the actual manufacturers of cues are willing participants.

The bad part is the exact same thing as has been proven in the past and currently, some of them seem not able to resist the ability to publicly comment on their competitors in such a way, subtle or otherwise, to try and ridicule their work in favour of their own.

In my opinion, how a manufacturer produces their cues is between them and their customers. That’s the beauty of having choice in this day and age, as consumers we have the ability and choice to decide for ourselves who we buy our products from. This choice can be based on any number of factors that as individuals we feel are important to us. We then pick a company/manufacture that best matches our expectations and go from there.

I am perfectly sure that any cue maker would be more than happy to explain anything to a potential client if they so wished to ask. However, certain brands have certain expectations assigned to them mostly by reputation. How one earns that reputation is another matter entirely.

I use the example of the car industry. The current public expectation/perception is that a Peugeot will breakdown and that a Toyota is bulletproof. Did you know that both the Peugeot 107 and the Toyota Aygo are manufactured in the same factory as the Citroen C1, based in the Czech Republic and share the same chassis. So which is the better car? As a person involved in the stockmarket, to me the better car is the one that produces the most profit per unit. To somebody else it could be the biggest seller. Or equipment levels etc etc.

The ultimate point I am making is that as consumers we have the freedom of choice and that choice is personal to us. As a manufacturer, cuemakers may have different reasons for why they are in this business, some for commercial gain, others for fun or as a hobby. As long as each cue is produced to a quality that they are happy with then what more could be asked for as a consumer?

Why do people not contact the cuemakers and resolve any issues directly before going public? Yesterday I was having dinner at a well known restaurant in London, I was unhappy with one of the courses so I approached the waiter directly and it was resolved very quickly and simply. I did not stand up and shout for all to hear me. I wish people on this forum would have the same respect, not everything can be perfect every time to individual’s high expectations.

I wish both Keith and Trevor every success in their endeavors and hope that one day they may even be able to resolve the apparent issues between them, however they were raised.

[keith auld]

'And there was a voice in the wilderness'..................... thankyou for your rational and reasoned comments on the above - here I am at fault, but can't resist it, a bit infantile I admit but - my best analogy would be that I have a cocker spaniel that is used for flushing out game and she loves it - and therefore, with regret, for I know it is wrong, I'm actually enjoying this

[cueinhand]

The good thing about a forum like this is due to the size of the industry as a whole we are blessed that the actual manufacturers of cues are willing participants.

The bad part is the exact same thing as has been proven in the past and currently, some of them seem not able to resist the ability to publicly comment on their competitors in such a way, subtle or otherwise, to try and ridicule their work in favour of their own.

In my opinion, how a manufacturer produces their cues is between them and their customers. That’s the beauty of having choice in this day and age, as consumers we have the ability and choice to decide for ourselves who we buy our products from. This choice can be based on any number of factors that as individuals we feel are important to us. We then pick a company/manufacture that best matches our expectations and go from there.

I am perfectly sure that any cue maker would be more than happy to explain anything to a potential client if they so wished to ask. However, certain brands have certain expectations assigned to them mostly by reputation. How one earns that reputation is another matter entirely.

I use the example of the car industry. The current public expectation/perception is that a Peugeot will breakdown and that a Toyota is bulletproof. Did you know that both the Peugeot 107 and the Toyota Aygo are manufactured in the same factory as the Citroen C1, based in the Czech Republic and share the same chassis. So which is the better car? As a person involved in the stockmarket, to me the better car is the one that produces the most profit per unit. To somebody else it could be the biggest seller. Or equipment levels etc etc.

The ultimate point I am making is that as consumers we have the freedom of choice and that choice is personal to us. As a manufacturer, cuemakers may have different reasons for why they are in this business, some for commercial gain, others for fun or as a hobby. As long as each cue is produced to a quality that they are happy with then what more could be asked for as a consumer?

Why do people not contact the cuemakers and resolve any issues directly before going public? Yesterday I was having dinner at a well known restaurant in London, I was unhappy with one of the courses so I approached the waiter directly and it was resolved very quickly and simply. I did not stand up and shout for all to hear me. I wish people on this forum would have the same respect, not everything can be perfect every time to individual’s high expectations.

I wish both Keith and Trevor every success in their endeavors and hope that one day they may even be able to resolve the apparent issues between them, however they were raised.

Absolutely consent all of your points, if the serious disagreements arose , it only cause destruction to both sides!

[MikeWooldridge]

Mike Wooldridge telephone me on Saturday last and apart from being his normal beligerent self, asked me to leave this thread alone, I agreed to do so as I really can't be bothered with these people anymore;

i was trying to do you a favour...

but following his comment about telling me to 'shut the f*** up' has shown that he can't follow his own advice

it was light hearted tongue in cheek response to your post. people who know me know my humour. sorry if you took it the wrong way, no offence was intended

so I'm back with the same suggestion - come on Mike, seeing that you're 'handmade cues', get your handplane out and lets get some cuemaking done.

yawn...

people have seen me making cues and i've delivered quality from the day i started. i have nothing to prove to you or anyone else.

As a follow up to this - all the cues made abroad are done so by lathes, in one form or other

no doubt some are, but i told you once before in a phone conversation that i've seen them being made overseas, by several companies, without lathes, cnc or otherwise.

you seem to be obsessed with knocking others based on methods you assume they use, lathes or otherwise. and yet:

I to have a state of the art 92" bed lathe specially made for me arriving from America in the next 2 weeks

so lathes are ok now that you plan to use one?

this will also have the facility to engrave designs (similar to O'Mins') on the cues.

i'm confused. what engraved designs do you mean?

concentrate on my furniture business and just rely on the large number of cue orders that I currently have, that can be turned out relatively quickly and cheaply by the new machine by a trainee

why not just concentrate on making good cues and have done with all this nonsense?

one minute you're a furniture maker doing the odd cue in your spare time, then within a couple of months on the forum, you announce you're going back into cuemaking full time, producing a new website 'with paypal' etc., etc., and now you're gonna go back to furniture making?!?!

and i'm sure all those customers who have placed an order will be relieved to know their cues will be turned out quickly by a trainee...

maybe you could have worded all that better...

....

apart from my own comments above, i agree 100% with everything trevor has said.

in fact, he saved me job of attempting to explain and respond to many issues keith has brought up.

once before in a post i have explained my views on 'hand made'. the use of machines to some degree does not take away from the 'hands on' skill, involved in getting the end result.

in my opinion, when you say machine made, you literally stick a square into a copy lathe and a cue pops out the end.

i don't do that, so i'll stick with saying my cues are hand made as i have done for many years, without feeling i am 'conning' anyone, and continue delivering the quality people demand in this competitive industry.

at the end of the day, the customers will decide who makes a living and continues to be successful

and therefore, with regret, for I know it is wrong, I'm actually enjoying this

that's just sad....

final word:

for the handful of posters who seemed intent to jump in bed with keith despite the fact that other experienced people disagreed with some of his comments, maybe the bigger picture has become clearer over recent weeks.

i sincerely hope so. cos i for one, am not on this forum for self promotion or 'willful destruction' of others, moreover some light hearted banter, and a little bit of good advice thrown in occasionally.

[Son of Cliff]

Does not sound like a very nice man this Mr Aulds, I think my money will be spent on a White or Wooldridge somewhere down the line :snooker:

[platt]

As i started this tread, i feel its time to say something more ! I find it very strange to read that keith send me out the cue knowing full well that i would review it and say what faults i as a player, collector and seller of cues would say about the end product.I have seen cues that are over a hundred years old and none were finished the way keiths were with flat spots, shaft shape and so on. I would find it strange if any player with so degree of common sence would be happy over all with the finish product (im not been a smart arse or anything by saying this keith). With the standard of cues out there if i was a cuemaker nothing but perfect cues would leave my work bench. People who pay money want perfection or eye perfect cues this is fact. I feel most of the members on expect the same when buying a cue.

[Son of Cliff]

As i started this tread, i feel its time to say something more ! I find it very strange to read that keith send me out the cue knowing full well that i would review it and say what faults i as a player, collector and seller of cues would say about the end product.I have seen cues that are over a hundred years old and none were finished the way keiths were with flat spots, shaft shape and so on. I would find it strange if any player with so degree of common sence would be happy over all with the finish product (im not been a smart arse or anything by saying this keith). With the standard of cues out there if i was a cuemaker nothing but perfect cues would leave my work bench. People who pay money want perfection or eye perfect cues this is fact. I feel most of the members on expect the same when buying a cue.

I would'nt let him sharpen my pencil.

[ADR147]

I would'nt let him sharpen my pencil.

is that a euphemism

[blowfish]

Sorry to barge in like this. I've been reading the forums for quite a bit, and just want to clarify a few things. I've owned numerous O'mins and visited the factory in Minburi countless times myself. I've not seen a machine there that is used for engraving designs on the cue. The only engraving/stamp machine there is for the nameplates.


Secondly Keith, it seems that you have a liking to carry O'mins name in quite a few of your posts. I for one know that O himself isn't one who speaks great English and certainly barely uses the internet. For one, in my previous conversation with him barely a week back, he has no idea about sending a representative to Shanghai for a cuemaking demo, and here you are mentioning about it. His only direct connection with mainland China and Hong Kong are Uniquecues and 147Snooker which are his distributors/resellers, and without their invitations, he barely steps foot there.

It sounds like a pretty easy way out referencing a cuemaker that doesn't involve himself with the internet and thousand of miles away, without having to back up those statements.

[poolqjunkie]

I just want to add that with a machine, you can still turn a shaft with a non circular cross section. A lathe is not a magical solution. An oval is a bit too bad, but you can turn a shaft with a non-uniform cross section. Usually, this kind of mistake is committed by amateur, someone with some very poorly calibrated/built machinery, or just plain bad technique and skill.

With the same token, you can turn a shaft completely round with a lathe. In the US, a lot of shafts are now cut with CNC and they can be very consistent and round. But you can achieve the same result with band saw or router, or even a wood lathe. In my opinion, it is the one who is willing to take the time and not take the short cut, who ends up with the best shafts. Not necessary the one with the best machinery. (I do not know how to do it by hand plane because it is mostly a snooker and Uk thing which I have no experience with, therefore I cannot comment on that. However, I will trust what Trevor White said, and trust that it can be done.)

Usually, the non circular shafts I have seen are only slightly non circular, which is not usually felt easily by someone who is not really looking for it. Nevertheless, if you use a thin piece of tissue paper and sort of wipe the shaft down slowly, and turn it in a circular motion, you can feel the "bumps."

To say that a non circular shaft would play better just does not really make sense to me from a physics point of view. If a shaft is full of flat spots and oval in shape at some points, the shaft will have very strange mode of vibration as it makes contact with the cue ball. If you look at vibration as a wave font, then this shaft would produce a very non smooth and inconsistent wave font, due to all the flat spots and its irregular cross sections which will not vibrate along with the rest of the shaft in harmony.

Also, since the centers of the cross sections does not lie along the true center axis of the shaft, the hit will be quite different depending on how you hold the cue. You may also have very different amount of throw when applying side spin, depending on the orientation of the cue. (If the cross section of the shaft is an oval, the flexibility will be very different on various planes. It will probably flex much easier on the plane with the shorter end of the oval, and flex much harder ont he longer end)

I made the comment in another thread, that if his cue is poorly built, he will have poor feedback whether he accepts the challenge to build a cue for forum review or not. He said he would only send a cue out if the person pays for it, and then that person can send it out for a review. I would like to repeat my opinion that if he wants such feedback to come from a cue which belongs to a paying customers, then he is being unfair to his customers, and is taking advantage of them.

I am sick of hearing and reading all this nonsense and excuses that Keith is putting out to exploit those who are buying their first cues, or do not know enough about cues to really see through all the nonsense.

I originally came to this forum because I have fallen in love with the game and just wanted to know more. There isn't much coaching or tournament in my area. So, I really just wanted to focus on learning about the game. If Keith had not been as ridiculous with his totally unreal claims and was so busy attacking everyone else in order to promote himself, I would have kept quiet.

I have been very frustrated that no one has stepped up to say how they feel about Keith's work and to tell other forum members about his nonsense until now. I want to command Platt for being the honest and brave one to do so. Platt, you are helping a lot of members to save a lot money that they would have wasted with Keith, and you are also saving us the agony to ever seeing Keith's name being put next to Trevor and Mike's when master cue makers are mentioned in this forum. I am also very sorry that you have trusted Keith enough to place an order just to receive such a poorly made cue--the cue maker is still trying to give excuses after excuses, rather than apologizing.

There used to be some who came to defend Keith saying he had been very polite and such, I hope they now wake up, and see the true color of this so called master cue maker who has been making cues for 30 years, but cannot even produce a true shaft, yet refuse to admit his mistake and make improvment.

Edit: Also, Keith said he did every thing by hand, with a hand plane, but then he also said he turned the butt sections of his 3/4 cues. I wonder if he meant he turned the ebony butt by hand, like how? How did he do it without the help of a machine? What about his ferrule? Did he use sand paper to flash the ferrule to the shaft by hand? Does he only use hand saw to cut his boards?

I know he said his joints are all machined with some very fancy machine, and are installed by someone else with a machine. So, does he call his 3/4 cues machine made, and his one piece hand made?

[keith auld]

Yes Martin you can make your comments and reviews - but you and many others still send your personal and prized cues for me to repair, alter and modify - why then, if, as some cretin has said on here, that 'he wouldn't let me sharpen his pencil' - do you, and others still send your repairs to me to be done ? All these reviews smack of hypocrisy when you consider that I have at the moment or have had over the past few weeks every cuemakers' named cue into my workshop for either alteration or repair, including many classic Burwat Champions as well as names I've never heard of - including those of yours which have required re-tapers and the like and you've always said that you're very happy with the result and in future you'd be passing all your repair work to me - I'm somewhat surprised by your comments and having got the cue back yesterday, I stand by what I said to you, this is a lovely cue, well balanced, perfectly tapered, every point in alignment, very reponsive - that's what I'd look for a cue when buying one - you mentioned that another cuemaker who shall remain anonymous, supplied you with a cue that looked nice but was too whippy and you were unable to play with it. You've left me a little confused now,what do you really want ?

[keith auld]

Your answer Mike -

quote - 'one minute you're a furniture maker doing the odd cue in your spare time, then within a couple of months on the forum, you announce you're going back into cuemaking full time, producing a new website 'with paypal' etc., etc., and now you're gonna go back to furniture making?!?!

and i'm sure all those customers who have placed an order will be relieved to know their cues will be turned out quickly by a trainee... '

My furniture workshop is in Romsey, roughly 25 miles from my home, making a 50 mile round trip per day - in December of last year i was diagnosed with a brain tumour and was restricted from driving because of the treatment I was getting, and advised not to use some of the machines we have over there. Subsequently I got a selection of single phase machinery and decided to do the cues from home to keep me occupied, and left the furniture business to my partner as I was unaware of the long term prognosis. As it happens, fortunately it appears that the treatment has been successful and my latest cat scan has shown the tumour to be benign rather than malignant. In a few months I'm hoping to be driving again and able to take an active role in the furniture business once more. The new machinery coming in from America in the next two weeks was designed to take the more ardous of tasks away from me and allow me, had the illness spread, to continue making cues and keeping myself occupied for however long. If all is clear, and I'll know on Tuesday when my next consultation is due, then I'll have a machine arriving that has been specially designed to produce cues with a minimum of effort and in that case, a trainee could operate it whilst I turn my hand to more profitable persuits

Hope this answers you question.....

[MikeWooldridge]

as some cretin has said on here, that 'he wouldn't let me sharpen his pencil'

maybe the 'cretin', as you call him, has seen your pencils...

but you and many others still send your personal and prized cues for me to repair

do you martin?

All these reviews smack of hypocrisy

lol... nice to see you've accepted it graciously....

then I'll have a machine arriving that has been specially designed to produce cues with a minimum of effort and in that case, a trainee could operate it

i know what machine you are talking about and it does not work like that.

plus a trainee will not have the knowledge or experience to know when something is going right or not.

however, judging by what's been said, it won't take much to improve on your 'hand made' ones, so good luck with that one...

all the cues made abroad are done so by lathes, in one form or other - I can even tell you the models and types and how much they cost

yes. please tell us. i'd like to buy one if it makes my life easier....