Joint thread thread!

[MikeWooldridge]

I was interested in one of your comments there Mike,albeit slightly off topic.

You said about repairing the ferrule end with a four point splice.I must admit I've never heard of this before.Is this the normal way to mend damage at the narrow part?

I had to repair my old faithful a couple of years ago and decided the only way would be a Mortice and tenon.

http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...1&d=1222425762

The tenon was about three inches long.Would I have been better splicing it,or would the position of the break,12 ins in,been too far up the shaft?The repair was successful btw.

i wouldn't say normal as such. only done it in extreme cases where it's a complete break. it's a very effective repair and in my opinion could be done to any cue to possibly improve the 'feel'. same principle, four sides fighting and holding against each other makes for a very strong piece.

more often than not big splits, even some breaks can successfully just be glued back. little bit of filler here and there and minor miracle is performed

the tenon idea is not an ideal fix but if it's worked then good. problem is, like extending the butt the same way, sideways impacts/excessive vibrations are likely to break the face to face join, leading to annoying 'clicks'.

actually i'm thinking you've been lucky cos the shaft is subject to far more vibration, so imo, more likely to break down.

but hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it

as for splicing it there, yes, it would be awkward @ 12". it's not the easiest thing to do at the best of times, and i may well have dowelled it myself if it was the only option.

that's the thing with repairs, there's more than one way to run over a cat...

[totlxtc]

Or there is more than one way to 'eat' a cat...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6974687.stm

[ADR147]

that's the thing with repairs, there's more than one way to run over a cat...

not true, there is only one way to run over a cat after that its all about speed and how you have tied the cat down.

[MikeWooldridge]

Or there is more than one way to 'eat' a cat...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6974687.stm

for sure, not entirely legal, or moral, but i'm sure my local takeaway has several options

[trevs1]

laminated wood is stronger than solid wood. why? cos where solid wood may have a weakness in the grain somewhere, laminated is made of lots of different bits and where one weakness is, another strength counteracts it. same applies to four splices in my opinion. the central core of wood is held on four sides by four different pieces of wood, so any weakness is kinda covered.

i've often repaired cues that are completely split at the join by oversplicing. never breaks again, despite the fact that underneath the splices is a dirty big crack!

also, another reason i believe this, is that i've repaired shafts at ferrule end which have gone dry/brittle and snapped, by 4 over-splices, and you'd be amazed at the cue power and feel that the shaft suddenly has.

so, i believe four splices actually brings strength and does not bring any weakness.

but having said all that, this sort of thing has been mentioned many times, and as you know yourself trev, a well fitted join is a well fitted join regardless.

the subtle differences between one method or another really do not come into play.

like they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat






Trainspotter post coming.......

I would definitely agree that when timber is laminated, it has more structural integrity than a solid piece, but in a 3/4 shaft, it's not laminated in a true sense. The forces on a shaft if it's struck from the side are more radial, and because of that, could possibly be more of a problem when we consider how the splices are bonded onto that shaft.

I would pretty much agree that four splices of ebony around an ash or maple 3/4 shaft is possibly going to make it stronger at that point, but I'm not so sure if that strength would apply when a hole of almost the same diameter as any remaining ash is drilled into the shaft. the strength then is maybe more reliant on the gluelines of the splices, which can at times be a bit suspect.

As for cue repairs, I'm sure we have both done many Mike, but a cue will always break again if someone treats it badly and whacks it about, no matter how good any repair was done. So in that respect, it's a question of who's using it and what they do with it.

As you sat though Mike, a well fitted joint is a well fitted joint, and at the end of the day, you and I use different methods of fitting joints, and no doubt both of us have very few issues with them. I think that goes some way to prove that there's no real merit in going with one way or another, even though some might think that one way is better than the next.

I;'m sure we both have our views on the joints of other makers, ut speaking for myself, I like the joints you use and the way they're fitted, it kind of bucks the trend.

As you say, cats and skinning and all that.......or even cats and 4 X 4's for that matter.

[MikeWooldridge]

Trainspotter post coming.......

lol

As for cue repairs, I'm sure we have both done many Mike, but a cue will always break again if someone treats it badly and whacks it about, no matter how good any repair was done. So in that respect, it's a question of who's using it and what they do with it.

As you sat though Mike, a well fitted joint is a well fitted joint, and at the end of the day, you and I use different methods of fitting joints, and no doubt both of us have very few issues with them. I think that goes some way to prove that there's no real merit in going with one way or another, even though some might think that one way is better than the next.

totally agree mate.

there's more than one way to attach a cat to ceiling fan....

[noel]

there's more than one way to attach a cat to ceiling fan....

Indeed... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHnuo17dsBQ

=o)


Noel

[spartacus_ck]

Maybe Mike could find a way to use a dead cat as splicing?

[cocked hat]

Thanks for the info guys,will see if I can put it to good use.(Shaft splicing,not cat bondage)

[poolqjunkie]

Wow, it is really nice for Trevor and Mike to take their time to share their precious knowledge and opinion, thank you so much.

Trevor, I am wondering isn't the ebony splicings on the shaft around the joint tapered inside, so the ash/maple joint section actually gets wider and wider as you move up the from the face to the joint? Also, if one really want to do it the other way, why can't one do the splicing with the ebony at a different depth at the face, is the diameter chosen for some specific benefit so it cannot be changed?

If it is of concern that the joint will be held by the ebony splicings, could the splicings be made shallower so more ash and maple will be there to hold it, or to make the splicings deeper, so the joint is now glued to ash/maple and ebony rather than just ash/maple?

Mike, is there anything you do in particular when you spliced the ash sections to prevent them from seperating in the future?

Thank you.

[trevs1]

Hi Poolqjunkie,

Yes, the ebony does taper to a thinner section as it goes towards the tips of the splice fingers, and yes, the ash or maple section of the shaft does get progressively thicker as it goes towards the tip end.

But, this cannot really be altered too much, because the depth of 'cut' into the shaft is what determines the length and shape of the ebony splice fingers....if you see what I mean.

So, by making the cuts to accept splices on the shaft shallower, this would cause the fingers of the splices to be far thinnier in appearance, which does not give the shape of splicing we look for in a 3/4 cue shaft.

Besides, as I mentioned in the post above, the force on a cue shaft struck from the side would be radial (by this I mean from the centre of the hole drilled for the joint to anywhere on the outside of the shaft around the joint), so to that end, there is minimal benefit strengthwise in the fact that there are four pieces of ebony bonded to the outside of the substrate timber (or shaft wood).

The bottom line is that there is no definite 'best' way to go about it.

To offer my thoughts on your last question, I'd say the only thing anyone can do to stop any splice work separating in the future is to bond them correctly in the first place.
After any timber has been bonded, worked and then finished, there's little that can be done to ensure it stays that way, apart from not abusing it.

Shafts can be repaired in all sorts of ways as Mike said earlier, from dowelling to splicing to scarf jointing them and so on. But, as long as any work is done to a good solid standard, cues can last for years and years after the most horrific damage.

[poolqjunkie]

Hi Poolqjunkie,

Yes, the ebony does taper to a thinner section as it goes towards the tips of the splice fingers, and yes, the ash or maple section of the shaft does get progressively thicker as it goes towards the tip end.

But, this cannot really be altered too much, because the depth of 'cut' into the shaft is what determines the length and shape of the ebony splice fingers....if you see what I mean.

So, by making the cuts to accept splices on the shaft shallower, this would cause the fingers of the splices to be far thinnier in appearance, which does not give the shape of splicing we look for in a 3/4 cue shaft.

Besides, as I mentioned in the post above, the force on a cue shaft struck from the side would be radial (by this I mean from the centre of the hole drilled for the joint to anywhere on the outside of the shaft around the joint), so to that end, there is minimal benefit strengthwise in the fact that there are four pieces of ebony bonded to the outside of the substrate timber (or shaft wood).

The bottom line is that there is no definite 'best' way to go about it.

To offer my thoughts on your last question, I'd say the only thing anyone can do to stop any splice work separating in the future is to bond them correctly in the first place.
After any timber has been bonded, worked and then finished, there's little that can be done to ensure it stays that way, apart from not abusing it.

Shafts can be repaired in all sorts of ways as Mike said earlier, from dowelling to splicing to scarf jointing them and so on. But, as long as any work is done to a good solid standard, cues can last for years and years after the most horrific damage.

Thank you so much once again, for your precious time, and knowledge.

I now understand what you meant by the depth of the ebony splices being more or less fixed.

This brings me back to my original question, if you dont mind me repeating myself. Why dont cue makers just tap the shaft with a wood female, and insert a 3/8 pin in the butt for a wood to wood contact. If cracking is of concern, perhaps a joint collar can be installed around the joint face? These pin is threaded into the butt end with more or less the same diameter as the pin. The pin can be made of brass, stainless steel, titanium, and even phenolic, for weight, balance and playability consideration. I am not sure if I understand your answer previously, with regard to playability?

Is there any particular reason why the face at the joint has to be covered by brass, making the joint much heavier? From what you have described regarding the diameter of the maple inside the ebony splices, I am just wondering if this would be a more simple way to install a joint, perhpas to achieve a more "one-piece" hit due to more wood contact?

I know the British has been making cues for many years (much longer than the US), and are the best in terms of snooker cue building. I have total respect for the craft that you and others are able to offer. Please forgive my limited knowledge and ignorance on snooker cue building. Thank you so much.

Bongo, I am not aware any jump cue using a metal joint in the US. The breaking cues used by most US pros usually do not use metal joint collar either. Usually, most US pool players believe that metal joint offers a harder hit while a wood to wood joint is a bit quieter if the tapers and such are all the same--but that depends on the particular cue.

[totlxtc]

Is there any particular reason why the face at the joint has to be covered by brass, making the joint much heavier? From what you have described regarding the diameter of the maple inside the ebony splices, I am just wondering if this would be a more simple way to install a joint, perhpas to achieve a more "one-piece" hit due to more wood contact?

Im wondering if joints are made of brass due to strength but more the fact of transfer of vibration. Just coming to this assumption due to brass musical instruments. You dont see many made of those materials so maybe its down to the property of the metal? I dont know and its just a thought. Would anyone be able to clarify this?

UPDATE: Just read about the acoustic and vibration properties of brass and it seems to be the best metal that reduces any vibration. So maybe it is this reason that brass is used??

[poolqjunkie]

Im wondering if joints are made of brass due to strength but more the fact of transfer of vibration. Just coming to this assumption due to brass musical instruments. You dont see many made of those materials so maybe its down to the property of the metal? I dont know and its just a thought. Would anyone be able to clarify this?

UPDATE: Just read about the acoustic and vibration properties of brass and it seems to be the best metal that reduces any vibration. So maybe it is this reason that brass is used??

I always thought brass is easier to machine. Is reducing too much vibration necessarily a good thing? I dont know. I would think you still want some vibrations so you can feel the shot?

I agree a good cue is in a way like a good piece of music instrument.

[totlxtc]

I think its down the the transfer of the "feel" of the cue. Like i said its just an assumption. Would need clarification.