Butterfly Splices? Traditional Four Splices?

[karkit1028]

What is your opinion about the butterfly splices and the traditional four splices?

What are the advantages or disadvantages of the two ways of making cues?

Which on do you fancy?

[ADR147]

its not the same thing at all a butterfly cue is made in two parts.

[poolqjunkie]

What do you think about Kevin Deroo charging for his butterfly spliced cues made by CNC in the same range as the top UK hand spliced cues? Can Kevin Deroo actually make a hand spliced cue?

[karkit1028]

poolqjunkie, what do you mean by that...?
Could you further clarify it...?

[poolqjunkie]

If I am wrong then other cu emakers can correct me, and I woudl appreciate it a lot.
It seems to me when looking at a butterfly cue, that it was made with a v notch cut in the ebony and then turned to get that round two prongs look. May be it takes some skill to get the lower points both look the same, but I would imagine it being a much faster and easier process than hand splicing 4 pieces of ebony to get the points even top and bottom. I would imagine the latter being more time consuming, required more experience, and a bit more skill demanding.

[karkit1028]

its not the same thing at all a butterfly cue is made in two parts.

Good point!~
We can only compare and contrast two things that are not the same.

What I mean is... Is there any advantage of having the Traditional Four Splices over the Butterfly Splices?

Why most of the cues are made with four splices?
Does that means there are some disadvantages to have a Butterfly Splices?
If yes, what is it?

[MikeWooldridge]

karkit1028 please read this:

http://www.handmadecues.com/info/52-splicingmethods.htm

[karkit1028]

Thank you very much, Mike~

[trc]

Would like to know anyone has heard of Tom Gauthier from Canada. Gauthier cues were the best custom cues are expensive, but very high quality, balance and feel is very good. Marco Fu used a Gauthier maple cue before turning professional to win the World Under-21 Championships.

Gauthier cues are butterfly spliced cues as De roo cues does anybody used them?

Any feedback would be much appreciated

[DandyA]

karkit1028 please read this:

http://www.handmadecues.com/info/52-splicingmethods.htm

Mike, I love your website - it's really nicely done and it's cram packed full of useful information ... it is very well worth a read ...

If I understand you correctly (from your splicing methods page) you do not think it affects the "playability" of the cue whether it's machine spliced, hand spliced or butterfly spliced ... you don't say it explicitly but I guess you consider it's all down to the quality of the shaft?

But there again, you are a master woodworker and cuemakr and I am not but I struggle with the differences cos you know what you are talking about and I do not ...

But I'll have a go from my very limited understanding - please feel free to laugh or correct me!

o a one piece cue is a single piece of wood it's entire length with splices inlaid at the butt end presumably (a) to make it look prettier (b) to make it feel better and (c) to make it play better ...

o a 3/4 hand spliced cue is say 42" of ash or maple shaft coupled to say 16" of ebony butt, glued together by 4 hand splices probably of ebony too ...

o a 3/4 machine spliced cue is 48" of shaft and say 24" of butt ... whilst they are still square sections, cut off the corners and stick the V shaped bits together ...

o not sure about a 3/4 butterfly spliced cue ... logic seems to say cut off two opposing sides of the four sided square section but that doesn't seem to work .... what happens to the other two sections? and why does it look handmade (ie a rounded splice rather than a pointed one) ...

[poolqjunkie]

Would like to know anyone has heard of Tom Gauthier from Canada. Gauthier cues were the best custom cues are expensive, but very high quality, balance and feel is very good. Marco Fu used a Gauthier maple cue before turning professional to win the World Under-21 Championships.

Gauthier cues are butterfly spliced cues as De roo cues does anybody used them?

Any feedback would be much appreciated

Tom Gauthier is already dead. He was quite a decent player himself, came 8th in the Canadian Championship once.

Cliff Thorburn and big Bill were both playing with Gauthier cue when they first went over to the UK. Cliff later signed up with Adam from what i understand.

Gauthier's early cues were basically made with a machined spliced cue butt, by National or Brunswick, from one piece house cues, mostly with ebony butt. He would retaper the butt, build a joint made with a micarta joint collar(half joint), brass 5/16x14 pin, with a brass insert with a wood piloted female.

He made a lot of maple cues back in his early days. He would balance his cues with the joint pin so some pins are long, and some are short.

He had very limited equipment so the joint sizes were different and the shafts were not interchangable although they all had the same joint thread.

His early cues had the red micarta joint with the black joint collars at the shaft and on the butt below the red collar. His cues made at that time usually had just an oil or wax finish, sometimes, with a brass ring at the butt end as his signature, and were known to be very good playing cues. Most of his shafts featured the black fibre ferrule. He also liked to put a thin brass disk as a wafer under his tip, not sure why.

Later on, he started using cocobolo, rosewood, and ebony, and started making butterfly spliced cues. He would also put two brass dot inlays at the ends of the butterfly prongs. He made some ash cues, and the forearm and the shaft usually were both made with ash with matching grains, with a joint installed half way. He used a white micarta joint collar with black rings, then later on skipped the black joint and used a light brown micarta rings. He started stamping his cues, and some were signed, some were unmarked. His joint was pretty much his trade mark. He made some more "fancy" cues, which had veneers above the butterfly prongs. But his options were quite limited, they were built as playing cues.

He liked to dip his cue in epoxy to seal it. The epoxy finish was usually very thick on his cues.
I have only seen may be two cues that were not half joint from Gauthier. One was a 3/4, and one was one piece. The 3/4 had red ring works at the joint.

Tom Gauthier liked to compress his own leather bumper, they are glued on, with a black phenolic ring collar or a brass ring collar at the butt end. All the Guathier cues I saw had a round butt.
I am not awared that Gauthier used any weight bolt to balance his cues, I think he mostly just weighted his woods, and the joint pin, so they are naturally balanced in that sense.
He likes to use very close grained ash.

Marco Fu was playing with an Adam maple cue in Canada, then he used a Deroo cue. I do not believe he ever owned any Gauthier cue, although I am sure he has tried a few.

Gauthier had a shaft tapering machine which was pretty much automatic in cutting the shaft for him. His taper, in my opinion, is what made his cues well received.

In the early days, Canadians played snooker on Brunswick tables with slow cloth and bigger pockets. They enjoyed putting quite a bit of spin on the cue ball. Gauthier's cue, in modern terms, had very little deflection, and was very responsive. He liked to use the black fibre ferrule, rather than brass, to reduce throw on the white ball. His taper was a bit like US pool taper, but not as long. It is not a straight conical taper.

He used very high quality woods he got from Quebec.

Deroo have much more expensive and sopisticated equipmetn than Gauthier. Gauther was pretty good in being able to make what he made with what he got. Deroo has CNC, metal lathe, spray booth and so on. He can offer very complicated inlay works with his cmputer, so he is able to offer more variety for his customers.

I have never seen any hand spliced cues from Deroo. Deroo is not as good a player, nor was him as original a cue maker as Gauthier in my opinion. Gauthier is considered a master and a legend in Canada, while Deroo a cue maker.

o not sure about a 3/4 butterfly spliced cue ... logic seems to say cut off two opposing sides of the four sided square section but that doesn't seem to work .... what happens to the other two sections? and why does it look handmade (ie a rounded splice rather than a pointed one) ...

If you cut a big V on a square block, glue a maple or ash block to it, then turn it on a lathe, the butterfly would appear. The two prongs will be round. I am not sure if that is how they do it, and I believ this is one way of doing it.

***************************

I liek Mike's site very much.
He said hand spliced cues have the shaft running all the way to the end of the splice.
Does Mike mean he made his 3/4 as one piece and then he just cut them up and install a joint so the ash section of his 3/4 hand spliced cue are longer?
I thought for 3/4 cues, whether it is butterfly, machine or hand spliced, the ebony butt end is solid? There is not really be any benefit of a shaft running more deep into the butt end between the three in principle, is there?
Thank you.

[MikeWooldridge]

Mike, I love your website - it's really nicely done and it's cram packed full of useful information ... it is very well worth a read ...

thanks, i think so too...

If I understand you correctly (from your splicing methods page) you do not think it affects the "playability" of the cue whether it's machine spliced, hand spliced or butterfly spliced ... you don't say it explicitly but I guess you consider it's all down to the quality of the shaft?

pretty much. and the general quality of the build.

But I'll have a go from my very limited understanding - please feel free to laugh or correct me!

o a one piece cue is a single piece of wood it's entire length with splices inlaid at the butt end presumably (a) to make it look prettier (b) to make it feel better and (c) to make it play better ...

arguably, (b) and (c), (a) doesn't really come into it.

o a 3/4 hand spliced cue is say 42" of ash or maple shaft coupled to say 16" of ebony butt, glued together by 4 hand splices probably of ebony too ...

yes

o a 3/4 machine spliced cue is 48" of shaft and say 24" of butt ... whilst they are still square sections, cut off the corners and stick the V shaped bits together ...

not sure where you get 48" and 24" from. mass produced definitely from squares but can be done from round to get the points in right place, which is far more time consuming.

o not sure about a 3/4 butterfly spliced cue ... logic seems to say cut off two opposing sides of the four sided square section but that doesn't seem to work .... what happens to the other two sections? and why does it look handmade (ie a rounded splice rather than a pointed one) ...

erm....magic?

I liek Mike's site very much.
He said hand spliced cues have the shaft running all the way to the end of the splice.

well spotted. i thought i had made it clear that butt jointed cues are usually hand spliced shafts and solid butts, but checking below (where i assumed you read the info) i can see it is a bit vague:

http://www.handmadecues.com/info/52-splicingmethods.htm

to clarify.

1pc hand spliced - shaft runs to bottom
butt join hand spliced - shaft runs to bottom of splices, i.e. just the shaft. then married to solid butt (usually)

Does Mike mean he made his 3/4 as one piece and then he just cut them up and install a joint so the ash section of his 3/4 hand spliced cue are longer?

as a rule, no, but occasionally have done. depends on cue.

I thought for 3/4 cues, whether it is butterfly, machine or hand spliced, the ebony butt end is solid? There is not really be any benefit of a shaft running more deep into the butt end between the three in principle, is there?
Thank you.

that's what i'm trying to say...

p.s. very interesting to read about tom gauthier. are you sure you're not his mum in disguise?

[poolqjunkie]

Well, last time I checked, I was not related to Gauthier.
I was quite interested in him, because he was quite innovative in his time. He did not have really anyone to look up to, and was pretty much self taught. He did most of his things through trial and error. Deroo just copies the butterfly spliced cues design from the UK cue makers, but Gauthier came up with pretty much his own design, although it was kind of based on the Brunswick trophy cue when it comes to the joint. He did not have much money but was quite clever to come up with little ways to make things happen. So, that made him original and innovative.
In Canada, players do not think round points are better than sharp points. As a matter of facts, a lot of older players think a one piece butt is better than a 4-piece-spliced-together-butt.
The story i was told was that Gauthier bought a bunch of very old house cues with ebony butts that have been well seasoned to modify--that was how he got his first batch of woods to work on.
Even today, lots of Canadian snooker players would be very excited if they see one of those old house cues with an ebony butt. Devonshire is the name I believe. The general belief is that these ebony have been well seasoned and woudl make very solid great hitting cues. Whether the points are even also does not seem to matter too much.
I actually do not think Gauthier cues are really that amazing. But I like him for what he stands for--an original craftsman trying to build what he believed to be the best snooker cue in the world, with no one to learn from and little money to spend.
I do not like epoxy finish and he seemed to have used those almost on all the cues he made in his latter years. I doubt he really cared how the Uk makers make their cues. And I dont think he ever knew that no UK cue maker would put a lacquar finish on their high end cues.
I have tried one of the cues he built with those house cue blank and it was very solid, with a very nice hit. Some had very thin joint diameter, and some had very thick butt. I think they wer all indivually balanced. He might thin the butt or the joint to get the balance he liked, or perhaps they were custom made. He was a good player, and would sometimes watched a player play before he decided on how to build his cue.
In his latter years he would build some cues with two shafts, like pool cues, but one with maple and one ash shaft, which totally confused me.
Lots of the old timers such as Jimmy Bear would not play with anything but a Gauthier. I think it has something to do with the game being a bit different when it was played on Brunswick tables (slower rail, slower cloth, bigger pocket).
A used Gauthier usually go for about CND$400 to $500. They are quite simple and do not really worth that much. I think a new one when he was still alive was about CND $750 or so.
He had a bit of a temper and did not really like to be bothered too much. It was very hard to get a cue off him.
Nowadays, it is very hard to find a used Gauthier, because he did not make that many cues in his life time, and most owners are too proud to give them up.
I personally like ot have one of his early ones made from those devonshire butt blanks--just a bit of Canadian snooker history.

[trc]

Hi Poolqjunkie,

Absolutely great input. I’m surprised that you know Gauthier’s background thoroughly. I have to agree yours views that Gauthier was much better innovation than De Roo cues for sure. I even caught some De Roo spliced cues of inspiration were came/ copied from Gauthier cues.

I tried the Gauthier cues and imo it is certainly worth to be collected into the collection. His cues taper were different with any made by UK’s cue makers as usual. I found one good thing about his cues are very responsive with a "feel" and well balance either. I’m going to post some pics of Gauthier’s cues to share all guys here.

I've always like De Roo cues as well, but they have changed over the years (gotten rough finishing on the shafts and thicker taper). I went to Trevor’s maple and liked it better than Kevin. Then I also tried the North West and Dave Coutts Cues, cheaper but value cues. I recommend trying one, I think you will be surprised by them.

[DandyA]

Hi Mike and PoolQ,

I really appreciate you spending the time explaining that to me ... thank you both ...

I am a dimwit when it comes to wood or anything to do with DIY but I certainly understand a little bit better thanks to you both ...

So thank you ...