Vintage Cue Series

[100-uper]

For anyone interested, Andy Hunter and myself have now completed the eighth in the 'Vintage Cue Series' which covers the Tom Newman cues. This is now available in eBook format (free of charge), and can be downloaded as a PDF in case anyone want to keep a copy for future reference.
https://www.flipsnack.com/hylandbill...wman-cues.html

If you've missed any of the previous publications, the full range of articles can be found here:
https://www.flipsnack.com/hylandbill...new-shelf.html

[DeanH]

brilliant, look forward to reading this article

[felixshmak]

Thanks for the hard work.

[100-uper]

For those who have previously downloaded a PDF of the John Roberts cue article, please be aware that Andy Hunter has revised the values for the featured cues in an update of Appendix 2. A couple of additional examples of Roberts' cues have also been added to page 5.





01 John Roberts cues Rev.2019
No. 1 in the Vintage Cue Series by Andy Hunter and Peter Ainsworth

[Bell308]

Thanks for the hard work gents. one question would any of these cues being made in other B&W workshops such as Birmingham and being marked London etc?

[100-uper]

Thanks for the hard work gents. one question would any of these cues being made in other B&W workshops such as Birmingham and being marked London etc?

That's a good question. The source of cues for B&W would normally have been at their own London manufactory, which operated at various locations over their history. The larger branches, such as Birmingham (established 1892), Newcastle (est.1890), etc., also had their own workshops, but as far as I can determine, the purpose of these was to facilitate local repairs. However, all the major table manufacturers made use of specialist wholesale cue makers, invariably also based in London, to supplement their own production. The extent to which this was done is difficult to determine with any accuracy, but for B&W evidence suggests that they had become wholly reliant on these sources for cues by the 1930s.

[Bell308]

That's a good question. The source of cues for B&W would normally have been at their own London manufactory, which operated at various locations over their history. The larger branches, such as Birmingham (established 1892), Newcastle (est.1890), etc., also had their own workshops, but as far as I can determine, the purpose of these was to facilitate local repairs. However, all the major table manufacturers made use of specialist wholesale cue makers, invariably also based in London, to supplement their own production. The extent to which this was done is difficult to determine with any accuracy, but for B&W evidence suggests that they had become wholly reliant on these sources for cues by the 1930s.

Thank you for the response, I presumed the local branches had cue makers present but didn't have any evidence to back it up. I know B&W did have cue makers in there Birmingham (Halesowen) branch when they finally closed, but I cant recall ever seeing a B&W cue marked Birmingham or Newcastle etc.

[DeanH]

here is a Ye Old Ash Cue from Newcastle - not seen a B&W cue with Birmingham

[Bell308]

DeanH
Thank you so they do exist... ill keep looking for a Birmingham made one.
PS I live about 2 miles from the old B&W shop in Halesowen so there might be a few hanging on the wall of our local sports and social clubs. ill keep looking as they often come up when our older members fall off the perch.

[DeanH]

Let us know what you find

[100-uper]

here is a Ye Old Ash Cue from Newcastle - not seen a B&W cue with Birmingham

I'm not sure that this badge provides evidence of cue making at the B&W Newcastle workshops. As previously stated, these workshops seem to have been set up for repair and renovation work rather than manufacture. Additionally, B&W seem to have closed their London cue making operation in the late 1920s, thereafter relying entirely on wholesalers to supply their cues.

The history of Ye Olde Ash Cue is well known, being originally made from a batch of salvaged timber bought at the Newcastle Dock in 1929 or 1930. If their London facilities had closed, the branch office would have been faced with either giving this timber to the one or two Newcastle employees who may have been capable of making a good cue, or to send the whole lot off to a wholesaler who could allocate a team to convert the entire batch into cues as quickly as possible. It would make more commercial sense to do the latter.

To support this contention, it is known that Murton's in Newcastle, followed exactly this procedure of procuring timber and sending it off to Peradon, for the manufacture of their Murton Meteor cue. This was being done at the same time as B&W where retailing the first edition of the Olde Ash cue. If Murton's were copying the same commercial practice as B&W it may also explain the apparent similarity in design of cues supplied by these two companies at this time.

It's just an opinion, but backed by circumstantial evidence, and it makes more sense than taking one or more employees off renovation work to start production of a new line in cues.

[DeanH]

interesting as always
Bell308 had not seen such a badge so

As you say, not prove positive as to location made and batch making by an outside agent does make good commercial sense... but why the London and Newcastle badges? Are there any Birmingham badges YOA cues? Advertisement? If advertisement, why so few made with Newcastle badges? Local sale and all London badges sent to London?
As the song goes, "there are more questions than answers"

[Bell308]

As you say, not prove positive as to location made and batch making by an outside agent does make good commercial sense... but why the London and Newcastle badges? Are there any Birmingham badges YOA cues? Advertisement? If advertisement, why so few made with Newcastle badges? Local sale and all London badges sent to London?
As the song goes, "there are more questions than answers" [/QUOTE]

DeanH and 100-upper

its just more of a local interest to me as to why I've never come across a B&W cue marked anything other than London, thanks to DeanH obviously some were badged Newcastle, again having been possibly made by a local sub-contractor etc.

I also know B&W were making in Birmingham at the time they closed, but this was much more bespoke small scale production and general repairs making up the bulk of the work. the search for a Birmingham badged B&W continues...

is it also possible the regional offices / branches also made cues but were just badged as "London" at the time?

[DeanH]

is it also possible the regional offices / branches also made cues but were just badged as "London" at the time?

possible
and they badge them with the Head Office issued badges

[100-uper]

I've discussed this with Andy Hunter today, and he advises that the first edition YOA cues carried plates with both the London and Newcastle addresses, and that additionally he had seen one that refers to the Glasgow branch. He pushes the date for the manufacture of the first edition back to 1927, which is the earliest date he knows of them being retailed.

We agree that it is possible that B&W had the first batch of wood made into cues by a wholesaler, although in 1926/27 it might also have been at their own London factory in Furze Street, and it would seem that they had different badges made for use by the regional outlets. The second edition was much more likely to have been made by a wholesaler, and badges also exist for these cues which reference the Newcastle branch.