J. Pemberton & Sons table history

[koldogger]

I bought a 12x6 table at an auction about a year ago and have been trying since that time to find out something about its age and history on the internet and at the library (to no avail.)

The only hit I ever got on the internet was for a table with the identical name plate that had been sold at an auction house in New York. The site had very little information and it wouldn't devulge the selling price without a $50 subscription.

I hope that someone here can help me.

The nameplates say the following:

Supplied By
J. Pemberton & Sons (sports) Ltd
The Billiard Specialists
Head office and works:
Low Road, Hunslet,
Leeds. 10
Est. 1860 Telephone Nos. 75617 and 65455

I didn't write down the serial numbers and I probably can't get at them without significant difficulty. The table has 8 large turned legs and 1.75 inch slate. I was told that the wood was Indian Mahogany. It has a matching scoreboard that seems well worn. I hope this is sufficient information.

I would appreciate it if someone would share any knowledge they have about this manufacturer and the likely age of the table.

Thanks

[100-uper]

I know virtually nothing about this maker, other than they were still going well into the 1950's. According to my scant references they were established in 1840, not 1860.

From the postal address you have given I can say that it relates to a date after 1931. Bearing in mind that all billiard table manufacture in England ceased in 1943 due to the introduction of the Utility Scheme for furniture, and really didn't start again until the 1970's, I would say that a date of 1930's would be a good bet.

That's about the best help I can be on this one. If you happen to find out more, let me know.

[100-uper]

Just checking further, it seems that Pemberton added the (Sports) Ltd to their name just after the war (1947 or 48) so you probably have a table which has been reconditioned by them some time after this date. It was common in the 1950s for pre-war tables to be bought as stock and sold on in the same way they would a new table, in which case all identification of the original maker would have been removed. Could be worth a look to see if you can find another name though.

[koldogger]

Thanks 100-uper,

I had read some of your responses to other posts and hoped you would weigh-in on mine.

Your comments are very interesting and make a lot of sense.

For example, the nameplate does not seem to fit properly on the scoreboard. It's wedged between the 100 and 0 in a way that makes it look like they didn't plan to attach a nameplate when they designed it.

The nameplate on the table also looks like it was put on rather haphazardly. I just assumed that this was because of some refinishing that had been done.

I'm not optimistic that I'll find any other identifying features. I can recall seeing some serial numbers punched into the top of the legs and frame members but can't recall seeing any names. Is there anyplace that you could recommend I look (that doesn't require a dismantling?) Is there likely to be a printed name under the nameplate on the scoreboard? If so, is it even likely that the scoreboard and table match?

As far as other information, I recall someone at the auction saying that the table was from the 1880's and that they had bought it from a local Canadian Air Force Base in the early seventies.

Thanks again for your reply. I'll let you know if I find anything else

[Geoff Large]

any chance of a photo of the table , some tables can be identified by leg design , unless it is the common tulip leg which all manufacturers used .
for example George wright tended to make ornate readed legs , the Orme and son Zulu table has a distinctive design , some buroughs and watts have centre legs that are closer to the centre of the table and not even spaced with outside legs .
some times a manufacturers fitter would stamp his name into the cushions under neath or on the inside . these tended to be Thurston tables .
cox and yeman had on some tables larger horse shoe pocket plates . pocket plates can also identify or narrow it down to maker . in victorian times all Billiard table manufacturers where trying to bring out something that other firms did not , just to be differant and also claim a better product .
also Orme tended to stamp all pieces of wood ( Orme and sons manchester ) , also some cushion designs are identifyable , so a photo may shed some light on the maker .

[koldogger]

Thanks Geoff Large,

Apparently I've come to the right place. I wish I had found TSF a year ago. It would have saved me a lot of time.

I've taken a more thorough look and have taken some pics as instructed. I think I may not be allowed to post images yet or if so I don't know how to do it. I'll search the site and see what I can find out.

In the meantime I can describe a few things:
- the serial number looks like 12181;
- the underside of each piece of slate has "144" engraved near one end. The style of the digits are unique - The one and the vertical parts of the fours are all boxes with flared bases. The other parts of the fours are all single lines. The horizontal line of the fours passes behind the vertical and then flare at the end.
- the legs are not tulip. They are turned with a round piece at the bottom, then a half-cone (?) piece and then another round piece. I believe they are all equally spaced.
- I couldn't find any other identificatrion on the scoreboard although I do believe that it may have been cut down from a larger scoreboard. It looks like the top piece rests a little high on the ends because the end rails are a little too long.
- the digits on the scoreboard are unique as well. I can't describe them - I'll have to wait until i can upload the pics.

I hope this provides you with some more clues. Once I figure out how to post pics, I'll add them to the thread.

Thanks again for all of your help.

[Geoff Large]

the 144 on the slate is just the quarry markings that they put to each slate they are making into a set , once they are hand floated level they must not be mixed up with other slates so they number them as a set , if you break one slate the rest are scrap , you can try and put a slate in to make a set , but it takes a lot of work to do this .
the age of the table must meen that the slate's are manufactured in Wales .

Seriel number on the frame is the one that is the more important , but only a companies arcive could give you the date it was made , most tables have differant seriel numbers on the Frame and cushions , this is very common , as the frame is made as one unit then numbered and the cushions are from a differant line or workshop within the works .

[ryanah147]

A Question for Geoff

the 144 on the slate is just the quarry markings that they put to each slate they are making into a set , once they are hand floated level they must not be mixed up with other slates so they number them as a set , if you break one slate the rest are scrap , you can try and put a slate in to make a set , but it takes a lot of work to do this .
the age of the table must meen that the slate's are manufactured in Wales .

Seriel number on the frame is the one that is the more important , but only a companies arcive could give you the date it was made , most tables have differant seriel numbers on the Frame and cushions , this is very common , as the frame is made as one unit then numbered and the cushions are from a differant line or workshop within the works .

I am fascinated by your knowledge of your trade, plus the little `gems`you give to us. Can you please explain to me why different Billiard Table Manufacturers mark their cushions differenly :ie Baulk and Spot cushions are generally No`s 1 & 4, 2 & 3 are usually left of baulk, and 5 & 6 on the right of baulk. I have seen many tables using the counter clockwise method ie: 5 & 6 left of baulk, and 2 & 3 right of baulk. In fact Iv seen the same manufacturer using both systems (usually Orme).
Keep up the brilliant work you are doing in TSF, its always great to see your input and answers.

[Geoff Large]

99% of tables should be numbered clockwise , Burroughs and watts where the exception on some tables mainly steel Block (plate) cushions which where counter clockwise , and also the nap on the end cushions used to go to the right on these tables .
Normaly the nap on cushions 1/2/3/4 are to left and 5/6 to right , on these B&W steel block tables the old fitters covered 1/2/3/4 to the right and 5/6to left . but the 2 & 3where to right of baulk .

Old Joe who used to work for the firm I am with , told me this about 30 years ago , he used to work for burroughs and watts , I've also met other fitters who state the same . Joe was 80 when he Retired from fitting . he was brought to our firm as a stop gap fitter in the 1960s and never left , he lived at Birmingham and used to travel by train to nottingham on monday , stop in digs and catch the friday train back , he used to boil his under cloth's in a boiler on his bench and dry them in the cieling of the workshop , another trick he did was turn his iron upside down and fry an egg on it , and also put the iron upside down in the van to keep his feet warm , characters like these are no longer in the trade , he was a great teacher . other good fitters I have learned from where Mick Robb Deceased ( Belvoir billiards ) and Roger Percyhinski ( Direct recovers) both used to work for the Firm I work for . Roger for 38 years .

Some fitters from Liverpool cover all the cushions to the left ( Enbild ) , which is wrong as both side cushions must follow the nap of the bed . they did this because they where mass producing at the time . and never numbered the cushions .
Enbild also never put gimp on the end of the cushion to hide the end tacks or staples ,or cutt around the pocket hole's I always had to finnish their work off when fitting a brand new table they delivered to site , todays fitting I am sorry to say is based around Speed and quantity not quality .
If you come across a normal table where 5/6 are on the left of baulk it is because they have fitted them wrong , all tables should be no1 baulk end , 2 and 3 left side of baulk , no 4 spot end , no 5 and 6 to right of baulk .

I am pretty sure orme always stuck to the policy of normal clokwise fitting of cushionms . but then again a left handed fitter may adobt the counter clokwise aproach .
I would say it will not matter as long as the nap on the side cushions follow the nap Direction of the bed, but it must make a differance to a end cushion shot if the direction of the nap is not to normal table fitting .

now and again I come across a table that has 2 and 6 to left and 5 and 3 to right , this is prob because the fitter not concentrating on cushion 6 covering it to the left and then just swopping cushion 3 to other side because he can then recover this to the right , it is easy done when something distracts as 4 of the cushions are covered to left , it is easy to make this mistake , I've even done it myself when talking to customers and distracted . the side cushions are interchangable 2 and 5 only and 3 and 6 only you cannot change 6 to 2 or 5 to 3 because of centre pockets to left and right ., 2 and 5 and 3 and 6 should be universal fitting to equal spaced slate bolt hole's . all pocket angle's should be cutt to template also so no differance there .
also if corner pocket plate's are loose I've swopped end cushions over 4 to baulk and 1 to spot , this sometime's is a quick fix if the plate has two loose holes , by swopping it may be only one hole loose , making the pocket plate abit tighter . also some customers want the name plate at other end , so swopped end cushions over for this .
If some tables are counter or clockwise then I am sure it is some of the fitters or firms just trying to be differant . As far as I have learned and been informed over the years it was a Steel block B&W thing only .

Geoff

[Joe90]

Hi, I have a Pemberton cue which was made in Leeds west Yorkshire I bought it from a friend who told me it was made out of maple & the company who made it doesn't exist anymore.
I did try & track the company down but got nowhere.
That,s all I know sad to say, great cue though!
Joe90.