Side pocket problem

[Mike P]

I looked up the tables on ebay, nice especially for that price.

Mike

[Mike P]

Here are some pictures of my table showing the side of it and the pockets. From underneath the measurement is 6½ inches from centre to centre bolt on the corner.

One thing with my table that I could never figure out, the wood where the rail bolts are is not oak and actually is made from a few different woods. The bolt rosettes were missing when I bought the table, so I designed them and had them made. Since then I have learnt that the sides should be covered with oak skirts with a trim on them. Are these skirts something that is also available in Europe?

Also I have always wondered the tables’ exact age and model name. There was a business card on one of the cross pieces with their Toronto, Canada address. I was told that the number (9926) stamped on it could not be tracked accurately to an age and Riley had destroyed all the old B&W information, when they bought the company.

Any help would be greatly appreciated in tracking down some information on the table.

Thank for all the help so far.

Mike

[Geoff Large]

Mike , youre table would have cost 79 guineas when it was new , 75 guineas in mahogany , there is a book (circa 1889 ) called billiards Simplified or how to make breaks by buroughs and watts , most of their table designs are in the back section with some very interesting ilustrations and a must for any old Burroughs and watts Billiard table owner , there is the advert for the new pocket plate which is youre,s ilustrating both the old and the new side by side . youre leg design is pretty common , I come across the turned and fluted burroughs an watts on a regular basis .
You could if there was a casting foundary around take youre pocket plates to them and ask for same dimensions of the dowls and bolt holes , but could they bow the back plate more like an horse shoe , giving more depth to the plate and less likely of ball to rebound back onto table , Cox and yeman did this , but you will find it hard to aquire leathers for this type of horse shoe plate , and will have to make them from flat leather , forming it wet around the plate , maybe steaming it , let it dry , then punch the holes for the cord in them .
youre cushions if not fully oak would suggest they may have come from another table , I doubt if they had panels over the bolt hole's , rather buttons as original .
If you take a cusion off , have a look to see if the bolt holes have been filled in and rebored out , many tables had slate thickness changes over the years and the old cushions where re bored to fit the new slates .
Older table's tend to have thinner slates , down to just 1` inch thick around 1850 , I would say by 1880 ' 90 , 50% of slates would have been 2 inch thick .
as moterised transport by the turn of the Century made transporting them easier than horse and cart.

The book often comes up on ebay and was printed in the thousands so you should be able to track one down , I had two but gave one to another fitter .

I would estimate the tables age as between 1890 and 1920 , sorry I could not be more acurate , but burroughs and watts records where lost in the War when soho square was flattend by the Luftwaffe., One table survived the bombing as it was given away to a church in nottingham before the war , I came across this table , it had a soho Square ivory plate on one end but also Number 19 table which I would say was no 19 table within their Billiard hall at soho square until it was replaced with a more modern table of that time , the table belongs to a Doctorate of the coffee Bean and now resides in loch Awe hotel in Scotland , where the Doctor retired to the Hotel after staying there on holiday , he bought the hotel , Nice when you have the money to do that , he has Royalties for amost every coffee combination made due to his involvement in the blends of coffee , so when you buy a jar of coffee he maybe gets .05% from each jar , work that out for all the jars of coffe sold worlwide .

The table did have modern slates on it though , its original slate was 1 inch thick and bowed out of true .

Geoff

Mike ,More information about youre table , having given it somethought today as to why you have Oak frame and mahogany cushions and that they are Steel block cushions , this would suggest that the table has been upgraded from its normal none steel cushions to the steel block cushions at some time in the past , this is very frequently done around the early 1900s to present day , Steel vacumm cushions where invented around the turn of the Century circa 1889 ish , they had holes bored into the block that the rubber is glued onto , this they thought gave a better bounce in that the hole being sealed was giving the cushion a vacumm effect of sqeezing not only the Rubber but the air pocket behind , giving a better bounce , this proved to not be the case and in fact the gap between these hole gave a differant bounce so the idea was scrapped , to solid wood blocks , but the steel stiffens up the cushion and give's a consistant uniformed bounce across the lenth of the cushion , also the rubber as it enters the pocket has no rubber extending to the pocket plate , this can be veiwed better from above the capping in that the capping on a steel block is at 90% and the normal cushion is slanted at an angle of around 45% to the pocket plate .
the Mahogany cushions that you have fitted used to have slide in panels I think I can just see a rebate slot through the tiny gap of the corner pocket plate photo , on the bottom edge of the cushion you can see that the wood slot has been taken down or replaced and buttons put over the bolt hole's , if you look under the overhanging capping there will be a rebated slot for the top of the slide in panel still there . If this is the case then you have later steel blocks say around 1915 /20 onwards .

[Geoff Large]

Looking at youre middle plate , I would say it is 3 and 1/4 or 3 and 3/8ths wide , modern plates are 3 and 1/2 inch wide , also being as its steel block on these old tables the forming of the rubber around the bend and block sometimes makes the ball spin across and back out again , modern steels are more generous than this table , the leathers look too thick to me , put thinner leathers on , and change on a regular basis at signs of wearing through . I would take the centre section second leather off and just have a single leather .

I would try and get peredon and fletcher pocket plate leathers the size you want are Broad bow , on modern pockets they are extra extra broadbow , I do not think they do them in antique colour but you could stain and dry them plus seal them before fitting .
You could get a proper set of bag nets at the same time , although quality of these are from china these days , if you could locate 6 brass billiard pocket collectors , then use ring nets ,as used on rail pockets can be used , these would look great on your table , but only take one ball at a time , they are cork lined and you have a gap in the side to take the ball out , no need to keep putting hand down the pocket . but are hard to source , although I may know a fitter who has some .

Geoff

[Mike P]

Geoff

First off, when I went to post this, I see you provided more info. It took a while to write, so I’ll post this anyway. I haven’t read what you have written, but will right after sending this.

Thanks for all the help so far. Your wealth of information and sharing it with this forum is a bonus. The loss of B&W records as you described make more sense. I like the info on the coffee doctor. I roast coffee as a hobby, I could only dream what the value of his royalties are, with coffee being second to petroleum in world trade.

I do have a copy of the book you mention. My copy does not show a picture of the side pockets as you mention. This is not odd, as I believe the book was published over a few years span with revisions to the catolog. You are obviously much more knowledgeable than I when it comes to tables. My only advantage in this case is that I can physically examine the table. I am not certain if they are originals, but the rails I believe are walnut with some figuring of the wood, which I wish ran their whole length. A side note, when I viewed the table before buying, the previous owner had the rails on in the wrong order (talk about opening up the side pockets). Some of the wood hidden by the buttons was re-drilled to mount the cap to the rail. I presumed this was due to the mistaken rail order, but as you say they might not be original to the table. When you mention “the bolt holes have been filled in and rebored out”, are you meaning on the slate? I am not certain if the slate is original but it is 1 inch thick. I always thought it should be closer to the 2 inch figure. Nice tidbit on the slate sizes tied to their transportation.

The reason I think that a skirt covered the bolts is because you can see two screw holes in the wood by the pockets where they would be attached and the rail has a gap underneath to accept a skirt . Also a skirt with trim on the bottom would hide not only the light wood, but also the heads of the plate bolts and the steel bolted rail, which are very visible. Before I stained the wood you could see that the middle section of the side was pine or some other light wood which did not match the table or rails.

The leather on the pockets I had made when I refurbished the table. I had tried to shape them properly, but the only thing that worked was to pore boiling(just below) water over them. The leather shrank & hugged the plate immediately. I don’t imagine this was easy on the leather but accomplished in seconds what I had been trying to do for hours. Also the leather changed color, which I think gave them an antique look. I do not have access to a company that is able to make me new plates for my side pockets, but could always find a place to do the work out of town. I will definitely keep it in mine but first will try shimming them again. Perhaps with the second piece of leather taken off and a tad more height in the plate, that will cure my problem.

I believe that my table is a mix between the two I have pictured. The first leg pictured has the right dimensions for the turning and fluting. The second one’s turning and fluting is bigger and the bottom part of the leg has too much height. The opening for the leg bolts being rounded at the top, is similar to mine.

I just proof read this post, talk about getting long-winded. Sorry for that, but I guess I’ve a bit of excitement with prospects of fixing my table. Last question, is the 6 ½ inches center to center, the measurement I need to replace the corner plate?

Thanks again for all your and others on this forums help.

Mike

[Mike P]

Geoff, what I said in my last post about your sharing of knowledge has just been surpassed. I quickly read your two posts and I’m amazed. I have to run a couple of errands and will reply to your posts when I get back.

Mike

[Geoff Large]

thats ok mike , if you look at ilustration 10 in the book of a table example , it is the only cushions in my book with slide in cushion bolt cover panels , youre correct in that youre legs are what I call church window bolt covers on the upper frame block , which many do not know how they come out and break the moulding , when a simple pressure inwards and a slide side upwards on the top of this leg bolt cover will simply lift the cover out . as I said its a shame that the B&W records where lost , but the book is a godsend for information on Burroughs and Watts tables and other Billiard equipment .

What I mean about slide in cushion bolt covers is , that the slot under the capping is duplicated below at the base of the cushion , therfore providing a bottom slot for a panel to be slid in from the end of the cushion . locating in both upper and lower slot rebate's , the cushions could well be Walnut , but with this table I would say the originals where oak to match the frame , or the frame would have had a walnut veneer , these tended to be not solid walnut frame's but veneered over scotch pine .

The firm I work for we used to have an old fitter called Joe who worked for Burroughs and watts in their Birmingham branch from leaving school , he was nearly 75 when he retired from our firm in the late 70s . the Firm I work for is Elston & Hopkin Billiards , this firm originated from John Gents of Nottingham in the mid to late 1800s . John hopkin jnr is still alive although he is in his 80s now and retired . most of the info I have is passed down from fitter to fitter , the other gleaned from books , and personal experience from working on these old tables .


Geoff

[Mike P]

Geoff,

Sorry I did not write last evening, I forgot about hockey practice.

Kean eye, to spot the slot in the picture of the corner pocket. These rails only have the top slot so I am presuming that they were held in place by the screws near the pockets. Are any of these skirts still available or is finding 6 of them, not very likely? When I purchased the table the “Church window bolt covers” were missing. Some of the mouldings were also missing and broken. While refurbishing the table, I was in contact with Peter Clare who sent me an old bolt cover, which I used as a template to have the others made. I can easily see how people are confused with the removal of the covers, but to go to the extent of breaking them??

At one point I believe my table was in a pool hall. The amount of cigarette burns on the caps was unbelievable. With the amount of refurbishing I had to do to this table, I’m not surprised to hear it is a mismatch. The oak on the bed is a laminate, which seems to be laid over mahogany. At one point while trying to fix the end pieces to the sides, a hammer was used. It took quite some time to steam the dents out. I thought I was a fly by night, I can’t imagine someone taking a hammer to the wood.

I have copied to a location on my computer, your suggestion for the Broad Bow leathers. If shimming the plates and taking the second leather piece off, does not cure my problem, I will be contacting P&F. When you say, proper set of bag net, I am not certain what you mean. Do you have an attachment showing them, or are they just listed on the P&F site. A friend of mine has a B&W table from the 1920's, with I believe the style of pockets you mention. He called them slap pockets because slapping the pocket would release another ball. Do you have any images and what cost the fitter would be asking for them?

To have someone of your expertise, no matter where you have acquired it, is such a bonus. I would find it quite interesting, to work along side yourself and the people you have mentioned.
I will contact Senga147 with the size of my pocket, hoping he can help with a plate.
Again thanks for all your help.

Mike

[Geoff Large]

youre cushions would have had a bottom slot too as it has the top slot , it would have been a moulded bottom that is screwed the entire lenth of the cushion with the slot for the panel to slide in , the only thing I could suggest is ask for a P and F catalogue as they list all the cushion parts in there , but they are strictly trade only ,
But you would have to poilish and stain to match youre table .
Or see if someone has a second hand steel block cushion cappings complete in Oak and also the pocket plates for them that would compliment the period of youre table .
at elston and Hopkin we have a set of spare steel block cushions with oak cappins and slides , but no pocket plates for them . but you would have to email Ted roberts for a price for just the wood surround that bolts to the cappings if he would sepperate , look for a contact at www.elstonandhopkin.co.uk .

Mike look on my other posts on cushion rail hieght , there is a picture posted on there of modern titan tables , these are chinese made cushions but follow the basic make up of all steel block cushions , note the bottom moulding with rebate slot , has this been planed down on youre cushions or removed from below as this sepperate piece of wood was just screwed on from under the main cushion body , as it is easy to break off the bottom moulding if it falls on the floor when taking a cushion off .

oh and you have a private message for the Riley Brass billiard pocket source .

if you are going with Bag nets , then they look better with the bottom haveing a tassel on them . but finding good quality one's is the task here . as P&F one's in full size mode are not good qualiity but not too bad . I tend to think that the pocket nets you have used are for a pool table .
if you can get the brass billiard pockets then all you need is standard rail nets .

Another good 97 page Booklet to have is a more modern one published in the early 1980s titled Billiards & Snooker A Trade History Compiled by J.R.Mitchell , most of the Firms are mentioned in that book with a history of the changes made to Tables throughout the years . From Wood beds and horse hair stuffed cushions to the invention of Steel Plate cushions in 1889 .the book is not a hard Back but is A4 sized .There is a picture in there of a Gillows Wood bed table taken by my old boss John hopkin on page 37, mace's where used on this table no cue's in thoses days , also take note of the small wood and brass barrels as pockets .
Geoff

[Mike P]

Geoff,

I will contact P&F for a catalogue to see what they have. I will be questioning you again before ordering new nets. With my daughter getting married next month, I have to curtail my spending for just a bit. Thanks for the leads, they will definitely be pursued in the near future.
I have the book you mention. It is a must for anyone interested in this great sport. I recall the table with the wooden bed, but will browse the book again. There is a lot of information there. It is the first book I read that states, ground billiards was the origin of many stick and ball games. Other books state billiards and other games was thought to be a variation on a form of croquet.

I checked out your other post, nice break down of the whole assembly. I think that the bottom moulding on mine was screwed on. There are some holes on the underneath portion of the body.
Thanks for the PM.

Mike

[Geoff Large]

Mike , having given more thought into why youre cushions may be walnut , and the main cushion body is a soft wood maybe scotch pine , and also you say the oak legs and frame has laminated panels pinned onto the side , I think youre table may have had Burr walnut veneer on the side frame these could still be there under the laminate ? , also walnut veneered leg bolt panels and also walnut veneered slide in panels that covered the scotch pine , this would then give you a oak legged with walnut highlights within the frame in the form of veneers , plus solid walnut cappings and bottom moulding with veneered inlay slide in panel , I have seen a few tables made this way , it was a way of making a walnut table useing oak as a walnut substitute but being stained walnut colour at a lower material cost price .
The soft wood body under the cushion capping has no effect on ball bounce as they are steel plated cushions .

Geoff

[Mike P]

Geoff,

As you know from our PMs you are right, the cappings do belong with the table. I forgot that matching numbers to the bed are on the rails. My memory was jogged because with all this discussion about my table, I took the cappings off to fix the pockets.

The veneer on the table is quarter sawn oak, that I stripped and stained to hide some of the hammer marks. I am not certain if there is a second veneer under but will check. I like your idea to have the walnut accents, I can see what my next project will be. Do you have any images showing the bottom moulding (from that time period) that holds the side panels?

There is one issue with the softwood body used. This is the portion of the capping assembly, that has worn with age and caused the pockets to drop.

Thanks for all your help, more questions to follow.

Mike

[Geoff Large]

Mike

I will take some photo's when I next do some work on a Burroughs and watts , for the mouldings .

I would glue dowls into the pocket hole's and redrill out slightly higher , take the measure of the plate with leather depth . to find pocket hole depth . do you also find that a ball into the Centre pocket can hit the capping , causing it to wear or split each side of the pocket . a common fault with steel plate cushions .

Geoff

[Mike P]

Geoff,
As of last night, I have raised the plate on the side pockets, by placing a number of shims underneath. The pocket accepts a ball travelling much harder now. I took the second piece of leather off but will try it with them back on to see if there is a difference. This will save me trying to get the single pieces of leather to match. I will fix all my cappings as you suggest this summer. Luckily my cappings are only worn on their lower portions. This is where the soft wood was used. In re-furbishing the table I had two pieces of wood missing due to the fault you mentioned. One was in the corner pocket. I find that the wood seems to enter the pocket opening too much.

Thanks for all the help.
Mike