Side pocket problem

[Mike P]

I am wondering if anyone has a solution to my problem. When shooting hard into my side pockets the ball will hit the back of the pocket and spring back out. My table is an old Burroughes & Watts from the 1800's. When I purchased the table the pockets had a second hood of leather on them. I redid the pockets with antique looking leather and added the second hood like the original. I am now wondering if the second hood was installed due to the first hood starting to wear out. I would never have debated taking the second hood off had the balls stayed in. So, did some older tables have a second hood and how do I cure my spitting pocket problem?

Mike

[Geoff Large]

I am wondering if anyone has a solution to my problem. When shooting hard into my side pockets the ball will hit the back of the pocket and spring back out. My table is an old Burroughes & Watts from the 1800's. When I purchased the table the pockets had a second hood of leather on them. I redid the pockets with antique looking leather and added the second hood like the original. I am now wondering if the second hood was installed due to the first hood starting to wear out. I would never have debated taking the second hood off had the balls stayed in. So, did some older tables have a second hood and how do I cure my spitting pocket problem?

Mike

Mike , this is an ongoing problem on many billiard table's , the main problem is the depth of the cushion capping , on old tables they tend to be very narrow cappings say 2 to 2.5 inch , most modern table's capping are 3.5 to 4 inch , add on the steel plate cushion thickness of 3/8ths and you have a good depth for the plate to be set back into .

Most burroughs and watts tables have bolt on Pocket plates , they have a brass dowl that is inserted into the end of the cushion and a bolt that comes from under the cushion to locate into a threaded hole within the dowl .

The body of the cushion ( the part with the cushion bolt hole's in ) dictates how far back you can locate the plate , you cannot take a plate further back than the body depth if it is a bolt from under type .
The same applies to top plates ( as used on very early tables ) , again bolted from under the cushion , but you are at limited by body depth to how far back you can place them on the capping .

Changing to say a 2 pin pocket plate ( plate with two small brass dowls at each end ) will solve the problem but give you another , if you put these plates on , by filling in youre old dowl holes and drilling out for the two pins further back , you have no strenth behind the plate and one good wack of a ball at the plate will crack the cushion and in time the plate will just fall out of the table with two pieces of wood on the floor .
Ive seen this many times , and is why I am afraid if you like youre old antique table the you have to live with the pocket defect for todays modern snooker game , remember it was billiards in the days when these tables where made where you stroked a ball into the pocket not wacked it in .

I like to think of these old tables as Classic Cars and should be kept as originaly made , if some one put say spoiler or alloy wheels on a MG it would not only look awfull but knock value off the vehicle , the same should apply to old billiard tables , they are a work of art , look upon the middle pocket as golfers have to look upon differant golf courses with differant feature's like sand bunkers and trees etc , the pocket plate depth is a part of the table and it is the same for both players so youre not at a disadvantage when playing on it , on modern tables they can take a ball at speed due to the pocket being further back in the capping and also the scoop they put into the Brass , it deflects the ball down wards not back towards the slate fall .
Joe davies had no bother racking up many a 147 break on these type of tables , I am not sure that today's players could do the same , as in Davies's day they where under 3.5 inch at the corner slate fall .

When you say second hood , do you mean two leathers , if it is an old top plate leather , sometimes they had a piece of leather inserted in the face of the brass only , and no leather over the brass at all . It was the face leather insert that protected the ball from the Brass , many of these inserts fall out and a top plate leather is just sewn over the top , I always clean off the brass edge if the insert is missing as you cannot get these anymore . (but you can glue leather inserts in if you have the time to make them )
They used this type of pocket plate normaly on smaller tables , but I have seen them on full size too .
I would only have one leather on the plate as intended by the manufacturer , I am thinking youre table has Top plates if it is circa 1880 to 1890 , sometimes they silver plated the Brass on these on top end tables . is it Burr oak or Wallnut ? or higly figured mahogany ? a picture of the pocket and table would be good for more info , also a close up of the capping depth at the middle pocket .

[Mike P]

Geoff,

Thank you for the reply, even though in conclusion I have to accept the table as is. With it’s age, I had never considered that it was manufactured before snooker was played. My pockets are bolted from underneath. I am away from home at the moment, but I believe that my table would fall into the narrow cappings department. I have kept it as original as possible and have no intention changing it. I will take the second hood (2 leather pieces)off, to have it in original condition and gain a fraction of an inch more clearance.

The table bed and legs are oak with the rails being walnut. I will take some pictures and post them when I get home on Tuesday.

Also one of my corner pocket irons has been modified. The previous owner said that an iron was missing, so he had one made out of aluminum. They did a good job, except when they drilled and threaded it at the wrong angle. The back of the pocket sits up noticeably higher. I have tried to locate an original iron in Canada, to no avail. If I can find my old documentation from when I first assembled the table, I do have measurements and I believe a number. Is there a way of telling which number the iron is without taking the hoods off it and do you know where I can get one??

Mike

[senga147]

Pocket Iron

I have suitable pocket irons. If you can e-mail a tracing of the iron, I will be able to supply same.

[Mike P]

I will be in touch once I get back home, thanks.

Mike

[Geoff Large]

Mike ,by pocket iron do you mean the Brass pocket plate ? if you post a picture of the plate with dimensions , the most important dimension is the centre of hole thread to centre of hole thread , I am sure someone will have a Burroughs and watts plate knocking around as many of these old tables have had new sets of cushions fitted , old cushions are scrapped and the brass plates are put into the spares box for any future use , such as you are now requiring .

[KeithinFrance]

This is one of the most helpful and interesting threads I've read on here in a while. I'd never have thought that an old table could make today's style of play difficult and the number of possible problems you can have if a part breaks or is faulty is incredible; again, I would never've thought of that. Thank you to Geoff for a wonderfully detailed and understandable explanation which shows a breadth of knowledge that is quite simply flabbergasting to a layman.

It's also another thread which demonstrates what a good forum we have here, as both Geoff and Senga are ready to help Mike with his problem(s) and have suggested solutions and they don't know each other at all. Nice work, guys.

[moglet]

Yes, good stuff.

I had the same problem on my table even though the plates were set further back from the fall than Mike P's. As with his they have a fairly large diameter pin and long bolt to fix from underneath the capping. In my case the problem was that the holes in the cappings that take the pins had become so worn over the years that the plate was sitting several millimeters lower than it should be, I managed to re-machine the cappings and fitted a brass sleeve to bring the plate back to its proper position. However it was still necessary to alter slightly the part of the plate, where the ball hits it, to make sure the ball saw an angle here to drive the ball downwards rather than towards the edge of the drop, the small recess for the leather insert allows you do this and to fit a piece of leather with a wedge shape to it helping to make the ball turn the corner more reliably. I've never had any trouble since then.

If Mike P's plates are very loose, he could try putting some stiff cardboard between the pin and the lower part of the hole recess to raise the plate and see if that helps.

[Geoff Large]

Mike you could take the alloy plate (iron) to a welder who can weld alloy have the holes filled in redrilled at the propper angle and tapped out .


I have a 3/4 sized table ( 9ft by 4ft 6 inch ) with the same problem as youre centre plates , it was made by Palmer and Sons around 1910 , the centre pocket plates are very close to the slate fall and suffer from rebounding back onto the table with force .
I am happy to live with it though as I do not play a lot of Snooker these days , working on tables all week its a bit like a busmans holiday .
This table I bought off ebay only last year , and it has had a very famous owner before me , Eric Clapton used to own the table , I bought it with providence from his ex wife Pattie boyd who was also married before Eric to George Harrison , If I was a betting man I would say this table has seen some action other than Billiards or Snooker during the late 60s and 70s where it used to be, at Hurtwood Edge ( Eric's House) .
the slates where in awfull condition , but the wood work is very good in walnut , the table is stripped down at the moment for renovation , but it is not for sale . I play the electric guitar as my hobby and Clapton is an idol of mine . so when it is renovated I will put a brass plaque on it , and have a few friends around for a frame .

[Mike P]

Geoff,
Yes I do mean the pocket plate. It goes to show you the difference between talking to a fly-by-night, as compared to a professional. On this side of the pond, anyone in the industry I spoke to in the past, referred to them as irons. At one point I did receive a plate from Toronto that fit perfectly except the hole thread was not quite right. A #6 plate comes to mind, but I will try and verify this when I get back. I live in a remote community and not certain that I would trust a local to weld and rebore the holes. With wanting to keep the table as original as possible, I hope to acquire an authentic plate.

Hopefully you will post pictures of the table once it is finished. I am sure if the table could speak, it would have stories that would peel the paint from the walls. I have a friend who is a big Eric Clapton fan and I am sure he would be greatly amused by the table.

Also Geoff, by chance, you aren’t making a trip to Northern Ontario in the near future, are you?

Mike

[Mike P]

Moglet,
Great minds do think alike. I have also shimmed the holes due to wear and have toyed with the idea of plugging them and re-boring. Also I guess all this discussion on the plates does bring back memories of what they looked like before I had them recovered. If my memory serves me right, they do have a small slit in them. Before verifying its purpose I will confirm they are that kind of plate. It sounds like the wedge shaped leather might be part of the solution.

Mike

[Mike P]

Keith,

Hope all is well. You are very accurate with your statements. I am not certain if this forum was around ten years ago when I first assembled the table, but what an aid it would have been. The only problem with all this help is that I had not planned on working on the table until this summer. Now I am going to want to fix it immediately, damn this forum So far this forum has caused me to purchase a new cue and now want to fix my table sooner than planned. What a great forum it truly is. While in Toronto, playing on tables other than my own, it has made me realize, just how much speed adjustment I have to make when shooting into my side pockets. While I am on the subject, anyone visiting Toronto should make a point of visiting “The Annex Club” at 507 Bloor Street West. I am truly impressed by the management and clientele. Thanks to Noel for introducing me to it. Just another of the many advantages to this forum.

Mike

[Geoff Large]

Mike , I have no emediate plans to visist Ontario , even though I am a Ice hockey fan , and would love to see the Leafs play and also see visit Calgary , my daughter has been over twice and also my Wife once , they stayed with John Craighead an ice hockey player who I think was drafted by the Leafs and played for their farm team , it was near the border because they went over into the USA too , here in Nottingham england I have to make do with the Nottingham panthers , the clapton table will be a long drawn out restoration as what with work comitments and a house alteration knocking two rooms into one and new bathrooms kitchen etc I have my hands full .

A little story that some may find usefull .

I have been away in Grimsby these past two days recovering two very poor manufactured tables in a local working mens club there , one annoying thing when I have just completed a recover is the spinning of coins on the cloth or slapped down hard on the cappings , this happens too many times , and I always get very angry with the Players when they do this , I know it is done to see who will break first , but if they just placed a box with a hole and a piece of cloth covering the hole , just high enough on a wall so no one can see in , then get 4 pool balls that are numbered 1 to 4 , each player then reaches in to grab a ball , no 1 breakes first , 1 and 3 are partners 2 and 4 the other partners , a simple solution and one that should stop the spinning of coins on the cloth . an old speaker box is ideal for this job , just staple a piece of old billiard cloth from the inside so it dangles down to hide what is inside .

Slapping a coin on the capping will mark it with small c shapes as the edge of the coin bite's in , slapping it or letting it fall on the cloth will cutt it .

Geoff

[Mike P]

Geoff,

I wouldn’t bother with the Leafs , come north and you could watch our team play (or make fools of ourselves). We obviously are known as the oldtimers. If you come up you could experience a swim with the polar bears. http://www.polarbearhabitat.ca/photogal/index.html (check out the pics on page 3/8 of the kids and bear)
Of course I can not promise that I would not put you to work. I had a similar experience in a bar, that went like this.

One time after reclothing a bar table, I was sitting with the owner having a beer. The first two to play on the table were flipping for the break. Before the owner could say anything, the guy with the Looney($1coin) did not flip the coin, but actually threw the coin at the bed of the table. I thought the owner was going to kill him. Needless to say, he quickly put a sign up banning flipping or throwing coins on the table.

Instead of flipping I would place the coin on the table with my hand covering it and ask my opponent to call it. One time my opponent said that it was not fair because I knew what it was??? I didn’t even bother trying to reason with him.

Great idea for determining the rotation. If you don’t mind I will quote you when I post an interesting picture in a new thread. Also I will take pictures and measurements of my table later this evening.
Mike

[Geoff Large]

As we are talking about pocket Plates and what they are made from , Iron , Brass or even alloy , one modern table that I work on frequently has alloy plates , alloy tends to grab any steel bolt that is screwed into it and now and a gain cross threads but is easy to retap out again .
What makes this table a bit more interesting is that they have bolted from under cushion corner plates and two pin centre plates to get the centre plate to be a bit further back on the capping , the capping being around 3 and 1/4 inches .
The makers name of these tables are Karnhem and Hillman , they are no longer in production , but as a a modern Billiard table I rate them top of My list for ease of fitting and they are very good to play on too , there are buttons over cushion bolts and a bit of reeding within the frame , some have scroll work between legs .

For any one in the Market for one of these type of table's there are 12 for sale on ebay this week in the south of england with a start price of just £300 , I cannot see them going for much more as they have plain square legs , if you could find one with a reproduction tulip leg they look better , but do not play any differant to a square leg .
As with any table for sale on ebay just make sure that the slate's are not dished , roll a ball down each side and check for running to centre of table from each side . if it rolls into table from both sides leave alone and check another table within the hall .

Geoff