Adjusting pocket size

[barracuda911]

Some time back, I started a thread which mentioned the tightness and the unfriendly nature of my snooker table pockets.
Last night I decided to have a look at this problem and I am very very happy with the results.
The pockets were slightly small, around 1/4 inch small at the fall and I always thought the undercut was a problem..the undercut is fine.
Anyway, what I ended up doing was unbolting the rails and putting some 3mm plywood strips between the rails and the edge of the slate, so when I bolted the rails back on, they were stepped out by 3mm, and the pocket by 6mm (2 rails).
It didn;t take a great deal of time and the effects are very pleasing.
After around 6/7 months of 'torture', now the balls don't spit back out at the mere touch of a jaw.
For anyone that has a tight, unforgiving table, then this is the simplest way of making it playable.

[bongo]

Some time back, I started a thread which mentioned the tightness and the unfriendly nature of my snooker table pockets.
Last night I decided to have a look at this problem and I am very very happy with the results.
The pockets were slightly small, around 1/4 inch small at the fall and I always thought the undercut was a problem..the undercut is fine.
Anyway, what I ended up doing was unbolting the rails and putting some 3mm plywood strips between the rails and the edge of the slate, so when I bolted the rails back on, they were stepped out by 3mm, and the pocket by 6mm (2 rails).
It didn;t take a great deal of time and the effects are very pleasing.
After around 6/7 months of 'torture', now the balls don't spit back out at the mere touch of a jaw.
For anyone that has a tight, unforgiving table, then this is the simplest way of making it playable.

Good idea, I wish I could do that before matches!

[samad]

Good idea, I wish I could do that before matches!

LOOOL , I wonder if they'd let me change it once its my opponents turn

[Krypton]

LOOOL , I wonder if they'd let me change it once its my opponents turn

Have you never seen the crank handle under most of the top tables?

[samad]

They can come in handy sometimes

[Krypton]

"And he's cranked that white nicely under the baulk cushion, good saftey!" ...

[inevermissblue]

Some time back, I started a thread which mentioned the tightness and the unfriendly nature of my snooker table pockets.
Last night I decided to have a look at this problem and I am very very happy with the results.
The pockets were slightly small, around 1/4 inch small at the fall and I always thought the undercut was a problem..the undercut is fine.
Anyway, what I ended up doing was unbolting the rails and putting some 3mm plywood strips between the rails and the edge of the slate, so when I bolted the rails back on, they were stepped out by 3mm, and the pocket by 6mm (2 rails).
It didn;t take a great deal of time and the effects are very pleasing.
After around 6/7 months of 'torture', now the balls don't spit back out at the mere touch of a jaw.
For anyone that has a tight, unforgiving table, then this is the simplest way of making it playable.

If your pockets are really that unforgiving, why don't you just take the cushions off? You are sure to get the pot then, no matter which pocket you go for!!!
I wish that ALL full size tables had tournament style pockets. Then this mentality of wanting to "mess" with pocket sizes wouldn't exist! :snooker: :snooker: :snooker: Remember!!! Its not that table, its you!!! lol

[Geoff Large]

hi , please accept my Billiards fitters opinion of what you have done as advice and not as a direct attack on yourself for doing this .

By packing out the Cushions from the side of the slate out , this will cause loose pocket plates unless they are redrilled out ,you cannot pack a cushion out without the plate becoming loose and gaps apear where the leather ends and the cushion cappings start , not all tables are made the same and people will have differant problems with the likes of two pin plates / top bolt down plates / bolted round lug plates , square lug plates and so on , but also the bounce of the cushion is reduced because you have taken out the solidness of the cushion by packing out with the plywood . you have put a foriegn body in between it will effect bounce . ( unless you use a more solid material such as steel but still not recomended )
All that was required is to undo the cloth at the corners , make a cardboard template just a little smaller than the radius of the rubber at the angle , and slowly sand down to template , smooth off with finer sand paper and check undercutt is smooth too .
use the same template on all angles , if you want to open up by 1/4 of an inch just take 1/8th off each side angle by sanding .
refasten the cloth and bolt back together .
how did you get round putting the pocket plates up against the cappings if you have open the gap by packing ?
I've seen this modification done a few times and each time I point out the pitfalls of why it should not be done .
about 2 years ago I went to a new customers table , he was complaining that the top and bottom cushions where making a wierd sound and the pocket plates where loose , I threw a few balls against the cushion to hear this , when I undid the cushions a piece of plywood fillet 1/8th thick had been attached between the slate and cushion , after removing them and refitting the cushions , the sound had gone , also the pocket plates where not loose anymore .
I pointed out that packing makes therm loose , as you cannot open up a pocket like that and expect them to be nice and snug against a cushion capping that has also moved outwards , and these pockets had only been packed out 1/8th of an inch .
With bolt down top plate pockets you may be lucky if there is plenty of tolerance around the bolt hole to relocate the new position , or you may have redrilled it out to allow for the move ? , all other type of pocket plates will cause more of a problem, but the cushion will loose some bounce and the noise of the cushion will change when a ball is struck against it .
I have even seen some fitters ??? put oversized leathers on to hide the gap between the pocket plate and cushion capping .

oh forgot to say the overhang of the cushion should stay within the rules of the WPS&BA or Snooker and billiards control council ( I cannot remmebr which govening body that wrote this ) if you make the overhang too small then the table will not be to WPS&BA or S&BCC spec . if you have a set of rules it will state that the overhang should not be greater than 2.1/8th and no less than 1.7/8ths , that was the last time I looked which was many years ago though , you will find more modern tables have only a 1.7/8th overhang , 2 inch is the norm , 2.1/8th very rare which will make for a tight approach down the cushion to the pocket opening .
in simple terms modern tables have a better approach to pocket opening due to not so much cushion overhang .
most steel blocks have 2 inch overhang to nose of cushion from edge of slate + thickness of cloth .

Geoff

[barracuda911]

My table is around 130 years old and has the bolt down top plates you mentioned, and there is no looseness whatsoever. The hole through the top of the rail, that the top plate goes through fits snugly.
Like I mentioned, the pockets were a quarter inch too small at the fall, so now they have been made the proper size.
The table is in my home and it is a good honest table, now with pockets that accept the ball, rather than reject the ball. Of course shots that are not right will not go in, but in the same vane, shots that are right will go in.
There is no loss of spring from the rails and the table sounds and reacts as it should. This measure was a 'quick fix' to determine if this would make my table more forgiving and fun to play on, and it has.
Given that there are no fitters in my neck of the woods, for 280 miles, then I am happy at what I have achieved.

[Geoff Large]

My table is around 130 years old and has the bolt down top plates you mentioned, and there is no looseness whatsoever. The hole through the top of the rail, that the top plate goes through fits snugly.
Like I mentioned, the pockets were a quarter inch too small at the fall, so now they have been made the proper size.
The table is in my home and it is a good honest table, now with pockets that accept the ball, rather than reject the ball. Of course shots that are not right will not go in, but in the same vane, shots that are right will go in.
There is no loss of spring from the rails and the table sounds and reacts as it should. This measure was a 'quick fix' to determine if this would make my table more forgiving and fun to play on, and it has.
Given that there are no fitters in my neck of the woods, for 280 miles, then I am happy at what I have achieved.

Thats ok the top plates (if the rebated top plate style ), and the hole for the upward pocket plate bolt has plenty of clearence , you will get away with it , but I disagree that the cushions will not lose any of its rebound performance , or that the sound has not altered , on every table that I have seen this done , when removed the bounce was better and the noise differant .
has youre top plates got a rebate that they sit in ? if it is the proud top plate style then no rebate will show , if it is the rebated type , then sometimes the rebate will show at the ends of the top plate .( have you a photo of the plates with wood in situ )
Pro tables are 3 and 1/2 inch to the drop of the slate fall , most club tables are 3 and 5/8th at the fall . with a standard 2 inch overhang of cushion , and a 3.1/2 inch radius of slate fall .
at the end of the day if you are happy with this modification then it is ok for you ,but altering pocket openings should be done by rasping rubber back and sanding at the opening .
it would not take long maybe two or three times as long as making wood packing with holes bored in them for the cushion bolts and fixing them to the cushions . but the table will keep its originality in the way the cushions bolt to the side . ok I take in that this maybe a bit technical for you and the packing was a quick fix that you are happy with , but if people read what you have done and try this on their table ,unless they are lucky and have a top plate that will hide any gaps , then they will have loose pocket openings , which is why I felt to answer this thread to point this out .

on the other hand I know plenty of golfers who would be happey if the holes on the green was much larger . or footballers if the goals where wider , but the line has to be drawn somewhere and keeping a table to its manufactured spec is part of the game .
all tables are not the same , the game has moved on , tables made years ago had thin slates , small cappings , top plates etc , the modern Billiard table of today has not been altered too much from its original design , but what has been agreed is that the match and club pockets are all cutt to near enough the same spec .
when years ago table manufacturers would try and out compete by bringing out new design quirks , some that did not work or where not realy called for , such as cushions with 8 bolts in them on the end cushions to give a more sturdy cushion , or the steel ribbon slip for fastening cloth into the cushion .
rubber has changed too from as many as 20 differant designs to the now standard 1 inch by 1 inch L shape , you can see old adverts from the likes of Geroge wright / burroughs and watts /thurstons etc all stating that their new design is better than al the rest , it was the victorian age , and invention and being one up on other firms was the way to go . There was not any agreement between the firms to make a table to standard dimensions .
What you have is a 130 year old table that you want to perform like a modern table , I always say to customers who want this , New cushion surrounds or new table , I get quite a few top players around the clubs who want their table to perform as a steel block cushion , but apart from fitting steels which is the only solution ( and the club will not pay for this ), nothing can be done unless you buy a steel block table and replace or fit steels , they still expect the impossible though .

Any way enjoy youre table , I am sure you are happy with the results , but again point out that I felt this had to be fully explained to point out pitfalls of any one deciding to copy you .

Geoff

[davipp]

What a great idea! I have be contemplating opening the pockets on my table, BUT, have been reluctant to do so. That sounds more simple and inexpensive, cheers.

[Terry Davidson]

Not exactly along the same lines as I have a BCE Westbury with steel-blocked cushions. When the table was first fitted I was unhappy with the middle pockets as they were too tight although the corners seemed fine.

Luckily I was in contact with a fellow from the UK who happened to have mechanical drawings of all 3 sets of templates in use these days, i.e. - WPBSA (you can't buy these), the older B&SCC and the new amateur templates from the IBSF.

I decided to do my table using the WPBSA templates as they were the most generous, especially on the middle pockets (and despite what the commentators say about the pro's tight pockets these days).

I took the cloth off from around all my pockets and drew a line on the rubber where the templates determined it to be and then used a belt sander to bring down the rubber, making sure I kept the 'flat' part of the cushion (the top 1/2" or so) going right into the pocket. If you round this off it would make the pockets play even easier.

My table was originally used on an older 60's Pot Black production (at least it's marked as that on one of the stell blocks) and I had to bring all the pockets out a bit to match the modern WPBSA template. I also noticed the drop of the slate on the modern pro templates is a little further out into the table, by somewhere between 1/8" and 1/4" although this is very difficult to determine accurately.

I would highly recommend you get a good table fitter in to re-do the rubber on your pockets as putting the lathes between the slate edges and the cushions will definitely alter the way your table plays.

Terry

[xjustxxl]

is there any way to reverse this ?

i bought a b&w table about two years ago.. the pockets are ...huge i would like to tighten them up a little bit. how can i do this ? rubber needs replacement ? anywhere 'online' where i can purchase this ? thanks

regards,
adrian

[Geoff Large]

i bought a b&w table about two years ago.. the pockets are ...huge i would like to tighten them up a little bit. how can i do this ? rubber needs replacement ? anywhere 'online' where i can purchase this ? thanks

regards,
adrian

You cannot buy rubbers pre cutt angles for pocket openings , for fastening to the cushion block , you will have to have a qualified billiards fitter ( look for a reputable firm or a fitter who was trained by such firms ), remove the old rubber and fit new , then cutt the angle of aproach to a template ( hand made cardboard or official wood type ) , if you have a table where someone has ground the slate falls into the table , then this will also have to be refilled back in and recutt .
This will then fix the problem of large openings to the pockets ,
the distance across the point of fall from cushion to cushion should be 3-1/2 inch , most club tables are 3-5/8ths to the drop .
Cloth thickness has to be allowed when making this measurment , if opening at fall is cutt at 3-5/8ths without cloth these will end up at 3-1/2 inch when covered in cloth.

Not all tables have the same angle of cutt , in the victorian period when youre burroughs and watts was prob made unless a later model , all billiard firms did not comply to a standard template , and most had their own template , where by you could still have the 3-1/2 inch pocket opening to the drop , but a longer angle or shorter angle of approach cutt into the rubber ,also under cutt could be cutt less or more , this will allow the ball under the nose at entry more or less under the rubber making for larger or smaller pocket depending on how this undercutt was done .

[svendh]

I've seen this old thread and would like to add something. My fitter told me that you have to use a plywood of the length of the whole cushion with holes for the bolts to avoid the lose sound of the cushion. I will try this next week on my practise table. Another advantage of this method is that you can easily revert the table to tighter pocket size without having to put new rubbers on.