How accurate is a table?

[philip in china]

How close are the tolerances when fitting a table?

[Terry Davidson]

Philip:

Totally depends on the ability of the table fitter. There are precise measurements in both inches and mm for a 12ft table but not sure about 10ft (if you're asking about your own table). This would be for both total playing surface and height, along with spots placement.

Both the WPBSA and IBSF have pocket templates, but they are slightly different. Ball size is standard at 2-1/16" (not sure of mm) and weight of balls is standard at around 141gms with (I believe) 3gms tolerance across an individual set of balls.

Measurements are normally in the rule books put out by the IBSF but I have never been successful on finding anything from the WPBSA.

Terry

[edemrulez]

Does somebody know how can I get the official pocket templates?

[philip in china]

Sorry, my question was ambiguous.

What I wondered was how close to level is a table? How close to flat are the joints sanded etc? As anybody who has any knowledge of machinery will tell you there is no such thing as exactly flat or dead level- just as accurate as your instruments will get it! So I just wondered what the tolerances are. If you are covering with a woolen cloth again that is not something which is of an exactly accurate and consistent thickness. The legs are wood which expands and contracts according to humidity levels. All these mean it cannot be a precise science.

[TheRowdyOne]

Sorry, my question was ambiguous.

yes phillip... how long is a piece of string?

[Terry Davidson]

edem:

You can purchase the official templates from the IBSF website. You cannot purchase the WPBSA templates.

The IBSF sets cost $400(US) apiece (at least they were when I bought them) plus shipping.

If you like I can sell you my set for $300(US) plus shipping. They come in a briefcase with foam padding and mine have hardly been used and are still in good shape.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

philip:

There is a system used in Britain using a laser level and on which Clive Everton wrote an article in SnookerScene a while back where it gets the table to as level as possible using a laser.

Remember though, on a 12ft tables the slates 'bow' a bit unless it's a qualify table with good support underneath the slates.

I think manufacturing tolerances would be up to the individual manufacturer.

Terry

[edemrulez]

Can you post some picture of it? I'm not a serious buyer, I'm just curios! :]

[Geoff Large]

Phil , A table can only be leveled to a certain degree , that degree is based on how acurate are the slates in the first place , Manufacture of tables has been going down hill for years , the best slate in the world is welsh slate , this type of slate has not been used in the manufacture of billiard tables since the 50s , Italian slate became the next best solution , but the way they are MACHINE honed for level is touch and go , Also the old tables had muntings or slate bearers that came up to meet , and supported the slate in its centre preventing SAGGING .

The best modern tables have bolt up muntings that are adjusted to support the table slates in the middle preventing SAG , The differance in welsh slate and italian is density , this density in the welsh slate also helps preventing SAG (if the slates where made thick enough 2 inch upwards )

Providing a set of slates are True when they leave the factory and the Table frame is planed true , and the table has adjustable muntings ( slate bearers) then all that is required to level the table is a bottle jack + wood and cardboard toe pieces ( Beer Mats ) and the most important tool a good quality engineers level .

I have worked on a couple of tables that where supposed to have been sorted by the Lazer method , and my findings are this method is Useless and in my opinion a gimmick (DON'T WASTE YOURE MONEY ON IT ) , the best way to make sure a set of slates are true is by HAND FLOATING an art that seems to have disapeared from the modern table manufacturer .
Hand floating is a very simple to achieve IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TOOLS , but this cannot be done in situ in a club .
A level frame has to be the first point to start from , then put the out of true slates on this Frame , most modern slate's are Sagged ( dished or concaved ) a wrought iron diamond in a square grid is manufactured as the cutting tool , two 10 foot poles are used to pull and push this grid up and down the lenth of the slates , the cutting compound is sand or grit ( Enbild of liverpool used the River mersey grit ) , pushing up and down the lenth of the table the grid cutts away at the soft slate , if you stay on the outside edges of the slate longer than the middle then you will be removing more slate on the high edges , at intervals clear all Gritt and sand off the slate , and with a good quality engineers straight edge , useing a ciggerette paper as a feeler guage , check that it grips across the whole width of the slate with no gaps , once this has been achieved the slates are 100% accurate , but without those adjustable muntings on youre table the slates will only sag again after a certain time , so if youre table has no adjustable muntings then you should convert youre table to have them fitted .

this is an ongoing problem with modern tables that where manufactured in the boom years of the early 1980s and due to what I call bad workmanship in manufacture they are still beeing produced with concaved slates , there are thousands of tables with Dished slates that are being played on in many clubs and billiard halls , what I will ask is PLEASE do not blame the billiard fitter if he cannot level the table if it has Dished slates , my engineers level is that good that I can show a customer straight away if his table has dished slates , and thats even before I remove the first screw .
another simple method is by useing a cue ball , hit a ball down each side of the table lenth ways , if the ball rolls into the centre from both sides , you have dished slates , this can be from not so bad slates the ball rolling in away from cushion , say 1 inch from each side , to very bad when the ball rolls upto 4 inch from each side towards Centre of table .

Youre question of the tolerance to aim for , as a fitter its always to aim for perfection , some tables you can closely achieve it , but sadly on many you cannot .
A firm that I mentioned that aimed for pefection in their slate floating was ENBILD tables , they no longer exist now , and table manufacture has now mainly moved to china as the main country of source .
I doubt that any British table manufacture will go to the lenths of producing a true hand floated set of slates , the reason being is supply and demand is not there anymore .
when enbild where hand floating slates they where selling Hundreds of tables a year , and had two men employed full time floating slates all year long , today a UK firm would be very lucky to sell 12 tables year , in the Billiard industry , the market these days is in just maintanence not Manufacture .

I doubt very much that you can order a Brand new set of slates and expect them to be 100% level out of the crate , HAND FLOATING is the best method of achieving this , don't let any one near them with a lazer connected to a lap top and a block of wood with sand paper to hand sand down what they think is the problem . its a Gimmick

As for cloth , this is down to lenth of nap and materials used , the longer the nap then the ball will slow down and also if played against the nap or across it , the ball will run off , some people think the table is out of level if this happens , but 9 times out of 10 its the cloth , Good maintenence is also of importance , Brush and iron every 10 hours of use to achieve the best results .

and yes you are correct in that wood contracts and expands , heat in the bed is also a help in ball speed , the best table therefore is an all slate framed table having slate cushion frieze and steel block cushions , some will tell you these do not exist , but there is one on the Isle of wight in HRH Victoria's Osbourne house hand painted slate frame and cushion freeze by Albert himself . look for a picture on google of this table
With todays construction methods you can get reformed Mouldable marble from italy useing resin based marble , mainly in fireplaces , but this method of construction can also be used to manufacture a table frame and cushion frieze . and I am pretty certain I have read somewhere they have done this .
Myself for the perfect matarial to use would be the same Granite that curling stones are made from , it is supposed to be the best in the world and comes from an Island off the scottish coast called Ailsa Craig , so there you are the best materials are British sourced Wales and Scotland , but we let a Far east country take over the billiard Manufacture industry , now where have I seen that done before ...oh yes British leyland and Rover . do they make the Rover 75 in china Now ?
it's all down to cost Phil , nobody wants to pay over £10,000 for a new table when they can buy one off ebay for £100 , even though for the £10,000 it would be as near perfect due to top quality workmanship and a guarentee of as perfect slates as you can get ., but the £100 one would most probly be one of those 1980s made tables which was all about build em fast and flog em fast with dished slates , there are two ends of the market , most of us have to accept that we are in the lower end and therfore have to accept a wider tolerance of what some strive for in perfection and its meaning of the word .

Geoff

PS, my good friend and Experienced Billiards fitter Gerard from Ireland has informed me that the Osbourne House table was actualy made from Irish Slate , by Magnus of London who had an intrest in the Irish quarry as well as his Welsh quarry .
Being as Ireland was once part of Wales before the continent was split by ice age , then I am sure this is prob true , as the vein of the welsh slate quarries must go under the Irish seas and into Ireland . just like the northern irleand Giants causeway enters into the sea and exits on the same vien on the Scotland coast .
I often chat to Gerard and we share almost the same experiences of fitting , we chat often about strange tables we have worked on , like Iron framed tables , slate or marble framed table's . funny stories too , some not to be repeated on a forum though .

[Terry Davidson]

edem:

For pictures of the templates go have a look at the IBSF website as they are posted there. I believe they are also on thw Wiraka website since they make them for the IBSF

Terry

[philip in china]

Again thank you Geoff. I wonder how many people appreciate the fact that a guy like you is willing to answer their questions in such detail and completely free of charge! This is the type of input that makes TSF such a valuable resource especially for those of us cut off from face to face contact with people with knowledge.

[northerner]

Philip just beat me to it, but anyway, thanks Geoff. Always interesting.

[recoil]

Indeed, thank you both Mr. Large & Mr. Davidson!

[edemrulez]

to #11: you're right, mate! very big thanks to these guys!

[Ex Enbild Fitter]

Phil , A table can only be leveled to a certain degree , that degree is based on how acurate are the slates in the first place , Manufacture of tables has been going down hill for years , the best slate in the world is welsh slate , this type of slate has not been used in the manufacture of billiard tables since the 50s , Italian slate became the next best solution , but the way they are MACHINE honed for level is touch and go , Also the old tables had muntings or slate bearers that came up to meet , and supported the slate in its centre preventing SAGGING .

The best modern tables have bolt up muntings that are adjusted to support the table slates in the middle preventing SAG , The differance in welsh slate and italian is density , this density in the welsh slate also helps preventing SAG (if the slates where made thick enough 2 inch upwards )

Providing a set of slates are True when they leave the factory and the Table frame is planed true , and the table has adjustable muntings ( slate bearers) then all that is required to level the table is a bottle jack + wood and cardboard toe pieces ( Beer Mats ) and the most important tool a good quality engineers level .

I have worked on a couple of tables that where supposed to have been sorted by the Lazer method , and my findings are this method is Useless and in my opinion a gimmick (DON'T WASTE YOURE MONEY ON IT ) , the best way to make sure a set of slates are true is by HAND FLOATING an art that seems to have disapeared from the modern table manufacturer .
Hand floating is a very simple to achieve IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TOOLS , but this cannot be done in situ in a club .
A level frame has to be the first point to start from , then put the out of true slates on this Frame , most modern slate's are Sagged ( dished or concaved ) a wrought iron diamond in a square grid is manufactured as the cutting tool , two 10 foot poles are used to pull and push this grid up and down the lenth of the slates , the cutting compound is sand or grit ( Enbild of liverpool used the River mersey grit ) , pushing up and down the lenth of the table the grid cutts away at the soft slate , if you stay on the outside edges of the slate longer than the middle then you will be removing more slate on the high edges , at intervals clear all Gritt and sand off the slate , and with a good quality engineers straight edge , useing a ciggerette paper as a feeler guage , check that it grips across the whole width of the slate with no gaps , once this has been achieved the slates are 100% accurate , but without those adjustable muntings on youre table the slates will only sag again after a certain time , so if youre table has no adjustable muntings then you should convert youre table to have them fitted .

this is an ongoing problem with modern tables that where manufactured in the boom years of the early 1980s and due to what I call bad workmanship in manufacture they are still beeing produced with concaved slates , there are thousands of tables with Dished slates that are being played on in many clubs and billiard halls , what I will ask is PLEASE do not blame the billiard fitter if he cannot level the table if it has Dished slates , my engineers level is that good that I can show a customer straight away if his table has dished slates , and thats even before I remove the first screw .
another simple method is by useing a cue ball , hit a ball down each side of the table lenth ways , if the ball rolls into the centre from both sides , you have dished slates , this can be from not so bad slates the ball rolling in away from cushion , say 1 inch from each side , to very bad when the ball rolls upto 4 inch from each side towards Centre of table .

Youre question of the tolerance to aim for , as a fitter its always to aim for perfection , some tables you can closely achieve it , but sadly on many you cannot .
A firm that I mentioned that aimed for pefection in their slate floating was ENBILD tables , they no longer exist now , and table manufacture has now mainly moved to china as the main country of source .
I doubt that any British table manufacture will go to the lenths of producing a true hand floated set of slates , the reason being is supply and demand is not there anymore .
when enbild where hand floating slates they where selling Hundreds of tables a year , and had two men employed full time floating slates all year long , today a UK firm would be very lucky to sell 12 tables year , in the Billiard industry , the market these days is in just maintanence not Manufacture .

I doubt very much that you can order a Brand new set of slates and expect them to be 100% level out of the crate , HAND FLOATING is the best method of achieving this , don't let any one near them with a lazer connected to a lap top and a block of wood with sand paper to hand sand down what they think is the problem . its a Gimmick

As for cloth , this is down to lenth of nap and materials used , the longer the nap then the ball will slow down and also if played against the nap or across it , the ball will run off , some people think the table is out of level if this happens , but 9 times out of 10 its the cloth , Good maintenence is also of importance , Brush and iron every 10 hours of use to achieve the best results .

and yes you are correct in that wood contracts and expands , heat in the bed is also a help in ball speed , the best table therefore is an all slate framed table having slate cushion frieze and steel block cushions , some will tell you these do not exist , but there is one on the Isle of wight in HRH Victoria's Osbourne house hand painted slate frame and cushion freeze by Albert himself . look for a picture on google of this table
With todays construction methods you can get reformed Mouldable marble from italy useing resin based marble , mainly in fireplaces , but this method of construction can also be used to manufacture a table frame and cushion frieze . and I am pretty certain I have read somewhere they have done this .
Myself for the perfect matarial to use would be the same Granite that curling stones are made from , it is supposed to be the best in the world and comes from an Island off the scottish coast called Ailsa Craig , so there you are the best materials are British sourced Wales and Scotland , but we let a Far east country take over the billiard Manufacture industry , now where have I seen that done before ...oh yes British leyland and Rover . do they make the Rover 75 in china Now ?
it's all down to cost Phil , nobody wants to pay over £10,000 for a new table when they can buy one off ebay for £100 , even though for the £10,000 it would be as near perfect due to top quality workmanship and a guarentee of as perfect slates as you can get ., but the £100 one would most probly be one of those 1980s made tables which was all about build em fast and flog em fast with dished slates , there are two ends of the market , most of us have to accept that we are in the lower end and therfore have to accept a wider tolerance of what some strive for in perfection and its meaning of the word .

Geoff

PS, my good friend and Experienced Billiards fitter Gerard from Ireland has informed me that the Osbourne House table was actualy made from Irish Slate , by Magnus of London who had an intrest in the Irish quarry as well as his Welsh quarry .
Being as Ireland was once part of Wales before the continent was split by ice age , then I am sure this is prob true , as the vein of the welsh slate quarries must go under the Irish seas and into Ireland . just like the northern irleand Giants causeway enters into the sea and exits on the same vien on the Scotland coast .
I often chat to Gerard and we share almost the same experiences of fitting , we chat often about strange tables we have worked on , like Iron framed tables , slate or marble framed table's . funny stories too , some not to be repeated on a forum though .

Hi Geoff, very interested to read your posts and your vast knowledge. Re Enbild floating their own slates, you are correct in what you describe well nearly anyway! The Mersey grit thing is a myth as we used any builders sand dried on an open fire, the guys who used to float the slates................well they were actually a couple of workshop joiners and any willing apprentice who was able to keep up! At the height of our production the slates were floated on a bonus incentive scheme in order to keep up with production, they certainly earned their money!! Look forward to swapping stories with you cheers.