dating George Wright tables

[Geoff Large]

I am not 100% sure who produced the first concealed pocket plate , but there are many formats of it , the B&W type with under bolts they have an advert in the Billiards Simplified book advertising the new concealed pocket plate circa 1889/1900 , cox and yeman large horse shoe with square lugs , riley had various fixing type concealed plates with square triangle lugs as well as the more modern two pin lugs ,
I would take a guess and say Thurston where prob one of the first if not the first to move from top plates to concealed plates , but then again it just may be Geroge Wright . I think many people refer to Burroughs and watts as the first manufacturer to have the patent for a concealed plate to be the first , but I am sure i have worked on many tables with concealed pockets that where made around the same time by manufacturers such as stevens / palmers / orme etc , I think what B&watts patent was is a concealed plate that bolts on rather than just use lugs inserted within the end of the cushion , bolted plates being a much sturdy job than any other type .
with the new concealed pocket plates also came the wider cushion surround and the plates set further back to reduce bounce back , then the Billiard firms used to put a bevel angle on the plate deflecting the ball downwards
leather inserts also to reduce leather wear .

the Billiard companys used to play one upmanship with each other all the time , many claims such as the air Cavity behinnd the rubber in the form of holes , that then where modified to a slot of air the lenth of the cushion , this being claimed a better rebound of the ball .
B&Watts used a rebate for the cloth retaining slip a little further back in the cushion capping , this makes them mimmick a steel Block in looks from above the cushion , also the steel ribbon cloth retaining slip of Orme and sons .

The tables you refer as modern with top plates are not worth comparing as table manufacturers , they jumped on the band wagon of the 80s , many made in the north east , poor quality and some have no cloth retaing slips , they where a bodge it and scarper firms .
one such table produced in yorkshire I think they where called Spen billiards , should have been hung for their efforts of nailed on blocks with no slips , cloth stapled to back of a block which had the rubber glued on then nailed onto a one piece side moulded cushion , a piece of square oblong low quality mahogany pushed through a moulding machine to make the entire cushion in one go .

imagine my horror when I first encountered one of these to recover in a local club in Nottingham , and there where 12 of them

[100-uper]

Just ocurred to me to ask about the following.

Am I right in thinking that concealed pocket plates came into being around 1890-1900? If not when did they come in? Was it a patented idea to prevent other makers copying for a while?

If so who was the first to offer them & what advantage are they over the exposed type of pocket plates.

I think you are about spot-on with your date. George Collins, a professional billiard player, claims in Charles Dawson's book (1904) to have "introduced to Messrs. George Wright & Co., the flush billiard cushions and pocket plates" (page 150 if you have a copy) The date of this advice is not given, but from the background of the player it was likely to have been close to 1890.

Burroughes & Watts were advertising an "invisible pocket" plate in 1888, and the first advert I have for a similar design for Geo. Wright comes in 1892, although they could well have been advertising them much earlier. However, I have also seen one of their tables which I can accurately date to 1889 which has top-mounted plates.

This doesn't mean that Collins' claim is untrue, as Wright's wouldn't just start making all their tables with this type of plate, but wherever it came from, 1888 would be around the date of its first appearance. I would also have thought that Collins' claim having been made in 1906 it was a bit close to the event to have gone unchallenged if it wasn't true, and I have not read of such a challenge from this period (which I have particularly well documented).

Top mounted plates do seem to have disappeared completely from the full-sized tables of London makers by about 1900, so the chances are that any old club tables with these plates are 19th century.

[cuerack]

Just a quick note to Geoff Large & 100 upper to say thanks for the time they spent giving an answer to the questions I had put up. Really appreciated,

cheers

[Geoff Large]

I have just got back from Essex a Day early and a couple of table's of interest , first one a George Wright 18 medal badge with top plates , although not what I would call a top end Gerogre wright , in that the leg pattern was a normal thickness Tulip leg Design and normal 2 inch side frame , it was made of quality materials but had a very thin slate on it of 1.1/4 inch , something I would question in that the date for 18 gold medal's was 1894 . very close to 1900 and thickness of slates where nearer the 1.1/2 inch to 2 inch at that time
The slates however I would have dated earlier to around 1870/80 being 5 section and not the earlier 4 or 3 section type , so it just maybe that the cushions where upgraded on this table at around 1894 or that old stock slates where used , but still too early for concealed plates , but as 100 upper has observed , none of the table manufacturers are suddenly going to switch over in an instant from top plates to concealed ones , this would have been over say a 10 year time period .
I will point out that I completey refurbished the table playing area in that the cushions where also rerubbered and the loose blocks screwed back onto the cushion , a job that the last fitter should have done as all the cloth was out of the cushion slips when I got there .

The second table of interest is a Thurston 1920s/1930s table Geroge V period , An oak square leg table with a concealed plate that I have come across before on a few thurston tables , the last one being the (ex Tommy steel owned ) adamant Cushioned thurston table that I wrote about a few months back which was actually Design number 23 a C.F.A Vosey designed table (identified through Norman clares note's on Thurston company history ), where the corner concealed plate has a screwthread on one end which always scews into the end cushions , so all 4 corner plates screw into the end cushion , the other end of this corner plate has just a push in lug , the centre pockets however are a square lug design that just push in .
A very odd design quirk to have as a method of fastening pocket plates , and one that catches a billiard fitter out if not come across before .

I also rerubbered this table , the last fitter having rerubbered it with low quality Chinese rubber which gave up its bounce after a couple of years , showing why you should always go for Northern Rubber made in Engalnd as the prefered choice of rubber , I bet he charged as much to rerubber in the low qauaity rubber as we have charged for the superior type .

I am on holiday for a week starting 9th August after this short break I shall be back in Essex recovering 3 more tables and one is the very old Gilllows table of which I aim to take some photo's of , and will of course publsh them on here .

[cuerack]

What an interesting design of pocket plate, with one end threaded & one square....can well imagine it taking someone unawares. Wonder how people cope the first time they come across it, only goes to show what knowledge & experience count for otherwise it could be expensive & ruinous.

Must admit I have never taken a table to pieces myself, & to be frank do not intend to, things like that are best left to the experts, especially after hearing of a pitfall like that!

I didn't think that it was the taking to bits that would concern me, I was more worried that I knew for a fact I would not be able to put it back together with any certainty of it ever being the same again. Although I am a engineer I know what I can have a go at & when I ought to leave well alone. Maybe you know what I mean when I say I've watched casualty but still wouldn't try to take my own tonsils out. Its all well & good watching someone do something but you cant expect to become an expert or even do a passable job with any degree of certainty on the basis of seeing someone do something once.

Geoff, could I ask you if know if there were historically & are any differances between a billiard table & a snooker table? I know both seem to be played on local tables interchangeably but were the old billiard tables altered in any way, pocket sizes /shapes etc when snooker came in?

Looking forward to seeing the tables you mentioned.

[Geoff Large]

Although it says Snooker table in the english dictionary there in reality is no such thing , ask any time served Billiards fitter and he will allways say ther is no such thing as a snooker table .

They are all billiarad tables , snooker is a game that you play on a Billiard table .
and the fitters title is billiards fitter , a description I always fill in on forms when I take out Car insurance only for the insurance firm to say they have not got that job description on file , I say well re write the file becuase it is a Trade .( they just put me down as fitter in the leisure industry they have that on file ...lol)

I asked this same question after about 2 years of being trained in my aprenticeship and got my head bit off by the Senior Billiard fitters .
John hopkin also confirmed this statement to me , he was a good freind of Norman clare who shared the same thought .

Now over time many inventions and tweaks have apeared some have stayed , such as the wider wood surround cushion capping in which the seamless or invisible pocket plate was set further back and top plates became redundant in future builds , also the extra broad bow the extra extra broad bow and the jubiulee pocket plate evolved , we have found out around 1890 ish or just before when the seamless pocket plate became the norm , Snooker did not become popular until the late 20s/30s , billiards was the Game every one was playing , and billiard table was phrase most used until the 50s /60s when snooker was realy the most popular game , and therefore people in thier ignorance I am afraid started to say snooker table , but look at old adverts upto around the 40s/50s and most say Billiard table even the Billiard diner from Riley was advertised as billiards table not snooker .

so there you have it , no such thing as a snooker table ,even if it is in the english dictionary or wikipedia .
But some think that top plate is the way you tell between a billiard table and hidden lug or seamless plates are snooker tables , but the date of invention 1889/1900 says not .

but then again I do respond to the Word snooker table and sometimes use it myself as I am fed up trying to convert people into thinking correctley and it takes too long to explain , but I always know it should be called billiard table ,
Then again people do not call their Cars Horsless Carriges do they ...lol and thats their correct title in the uk .

Pocket size over the years has changed and some still bring out new templates today to tweak them , in billiards time the pockets where 3-1/4 inch at the fall , over time this has increased to 3-5/8ths at the drop only to be downsized again to 3.1/2 inch at the point of fall . but the table design of wood bed first then slate with 6 cushions lint filled then rubber and 6 pockets have remained the same for around 200 years or more .
Wait until I take some photo's of the gillows table you will see how slender the woodwork was on these tables until the victorians got there hands of invention on the tables . thats when they realy changed in design , but billiards was still the game played at that time .

the thurston pocket plate was one end threaded one end round long lug , centre pockets square lugged , so a mixture of fittings all on one table , and very confusing , we have to think that Bag nets where the norm and not rails on nets at that time , because you have to unscrew the leather strap and the net wires on all pockets , then unscrew end cushions remove , then unwind the threaded plate out of the end cushions , with rails still attached , the reverse on assembly .
on some tables you can see where the fitter has ripped the screw socket out of the end cushion as he takes the side cushion off first , this is damage that an experiensed fitter who know his table designs will avoid .

[cuerack]

Geoff, thanks for your comprehensive reply. The information that has been posted has really helped me begin to get an insight into some of the history of billiard table design.
Can I ask what the makers that produced the extra broad bow & extra extra broad bow pocket plates that you mentioned said that they were for? Was it to reduce the risk of rebound & damage to the balls? Also can I ask what a jubilee pocket plate is.

With the designs you have mentioned I can easily imagine someone unintentionally damaging the woodwork of tables when taking them appart. One of the hardest things sounds like trying to work out what you are actually faced with but I guess this is where the experience & training comes in.

Will be interested in seeing the photos of he Guillows table

[Geoff Large]

Geoff, thanks for your comprehensive reply. The information that has been posted has really helped me begin to get an insight into some of the history of billiard table design.
Can I ask what the makers that produced the extra broad bow & extra extra broad bow pocket plates that you mentioned said that they were for? Was it to reduce the risk of rebound & damage to the balls? Also can I ask what a jubilee pocket plate is.

With the designs you have mentioned I can easily imagine someone unintentionally damaging the woodwork of tables when taking them appart. One of the hardest things sounds like trying to work out what you are actually faced with but I guess this is where the experience & training comes in.

Will be interested in seeing the photos of he Guillows table

Riley produced a pocket plate from around the 1920s/30s that we refer to as the extra broad bow , they where secured by an oblong lug into a brass insert rebated into the end of the cushion . these plates claimed to not have the bounce back properties of the standard broad bow and where more angled for a ball to divert its path suddenley downwards into the slate fall .
although a good idea , the brass oblong lugs wear out and the plate become loose and sag down , so not a very good design .

move forward 40/50 years and you have the extra extra broad bow with bolt down long finger thickeness lugs simular to B&watts type fixing very common on the modern BCE tables ( Bristol coin Equipment ) , the centre pocket on these BCE plates where a straight back plate flush with outside of cushion and the outer curve of the corner plates where flush with the outside diameter of the table also , making it look very neat , these plates where also scooped downward angles , but the leathers first designed to fit them where very thin and wear out very quick , making the modern thicker leathers made the leather stick out from the outside diameter and looks not quite right .
extra extra broad bow leathers in bce design have to be ordered for BCE as the centre pocket plate differs from normal curved type .

A jubilee table was made for the queens Silver jubilee 1977 I think , it is a modern table made by Clare Padmore and Thurston at that time now just called Thurston , having not the normal 8 legs but 3 eliptical oblong rotundas under the frame which is adjusted for level by bolts with a spanner by removing the curved end of each oblong rotunda .
the tables where covered with a formica finnish which is very hard wearing and save for a few chips here and there from rough play in the clubs , I have not seen a bad one yet .
The jubilee table had very large extra extra extra broad bow pocket plates which had a thick and thin two lug fastening system which stays solid in use , I have never had to refill and drill out these holes before .
Thurston still retail this table today and is available in various formica finnishes such as Birds eye maple or teak , some have a mixed finnish of dark and light wood formica . normal EX EX broad bow leathers would never fit theses larger plates of the jubilee hence why they also have their own jubilee leathers made .

have a look on thurstons web site to view a Jubilee table .
www.thurston.co.uk

[cuerack]

Yet more interesting info to contemplate.

Reading the description of the Riley design with oblong lugs fitting into rebated brass inserts made me stop & think. Although I realise all mechanical things are subject to wear when they move against each other I had not really thought of it in context with this. Then when you think a bit more about it, the number of impacts that a pocket may receive from pots & the occassional time when someone leans on a pocket too over the years......then I can see how over time the assembly will work loose. Just that I had never really thought about it like that before.

Wonder why the jubilee tables pockets seem to stay put with two lug fitting. Do you think its because they are more massively engineered & hence more robust or do you think that if there are two lugs it spreads the load more & this dissipates the impact energy or perhaps another reason?........would be interested in your opinion

off to look at Thurstons website

[Geoff Large]

well to be fair the jubilee table has only been designed from 1977 , the riley lugs that are poor design have been around since the 1920s so 50 more years of impact . before that the riley where a triangle shaped lug with flat peak into triangle socket , this was also a poor design , infact after buttons they used slides to hide cushion bolts , and on the riley tables it is very difficult to slide out a panel on a cushion because the pocket plate and net plus leather obstructs the path out .
I normaly unscrew the bottom moulding to lower the end panel out , then remove end cushion , you can then get the pockets off and other cushions freeley .
as some manufacturers have moved the pocket plate back they did not give much thought of the slide out panel access , infact karnham and hillman reverted back to buttons when they started making tables in the 70/80s . but skipped on quality making the pocket plates out of aluminium , with bolt up corner plates and two pin centre plates , they should have used brass , as the alloy threads grabs the steel bolt and cross threads easy .

the jubilee pocket plate has avery large finger sized lug that penertrates deep into the cushion and a smaller lug that only penertrates 1 inch , sometimes I have seen the smaller lug break off normaly on a middle pocket plate , but the large lug is always intact .

all pocket plates will become loose with wear of impact , and idiots leaning on them , the riley diners that lift suffer from pocket looseness because the owners lift the slate top up by the pocket plate's when they should realy lift from under the end cushions .
infact the larger riley diners have pull out steel handles under the end cushions for lifting , normaly 8ft upwards .

I think the best design is the bolt on like Burroughs and watts , with the modern ex ex broad bow , apart from a loose bolt which require tightening now and again , it is almost flawless . mix matching two pins centre plates with bolt ons is just not right .
i did notice that riley had two pin design on their steel blocks , a backward step in my eye's as they will only become loose over time . and most riley aristocrats are like this .

[cuerack]

Thanks Geoff.

Going off at an angle a bit from the original topic I wondered if you have come across anything on the design & nature of scoreboards. Lookig around at various sites most seem to go from 0-100, & so I guess are mainly for scoring snooker with 10 reds on smaller tables.

There seem to be very few marker boards with painted numbers 0-20 with the 20 - 100 in steps of 20 & with 100's marked on it up to 500 or so for billiards. However there are a few with roller numbers 0-100 & some have slates on them so I guess these could be used for billiards where 100's could be ticked off on it so in theory any pre arranged total could be set. Then there are the life pool boards too.

I know tastes & fashions would change & some makers might still produce older styles while others had moved on bu what generalities can you say about what eary boards would be like & how they changed over the years.

cheers

[Geoff Large]

I could go into detail of various designs and games played on score boards , billiards / life pool / pyramids etc , some even have penny slots for betting or taking part in a game or paying for an extra life in life pool .And also ball storage within the scoreboard , mirrors / slate and even a cloths brush incorperated within the board .

Scoreboards are a story within them selves and would be better discussed on another thread . keep this one for various designs and methods used in the evovlment of the billiard table .

same with cue racks various designs and matarial used from wrought iron to wooden rotating cue stands , some having ball boxes built within them .

[cuerack]

I agree with you that it would be better to start a new topic on scoreboards / marker boards & discuss under there. I'll start one off some time if it does not fit onto one already running.

A while ago we said that sometimes pocket plates could be bent out of shape if they were not used properly but I forgot to ask if this is something that can be sorted out easily or not. For example if you came across an older table where replacement top plates were not easily available & the wood work was still sound how would you go about straightening the bend....

[Geoff Large]

I have seen a few top plate tables which have had the rebate filled in on top of the cushion with say mahogany and repolished , then they are redrilled for smaller two pin plates .
I have never done this , but do come across one now and again .

If we do come across a top plate that is broken , we either have it braised , or find a suitable replacement either from the scrap box of second hand pocket plates or ask around the billliard companies for a second hand one , or you can still buy top plates as a set New , but they are not the rebated type , but have a finger plate that is proud of the cushion capping .
a bent plate can ususaly be bent back into shape , but it will be a weak part of the table and will break easier than one not re-bent into shape .

Top plates do not stand upto to constant banging in of the ball at speed , they are thin , and tend to break easy , where the broad bow or upto ex ex broad bow has more Brass metal to absorb the impact . But these can even break in time .

Right my cloth delivery has just arrived , and I am going back down to Essex for three days until Friday , I hope to be recovering the Gillows table on this trip and have therfore packed my camera .
we are very busy at work , being booked upto late October with recovers , table sales , and moves etc , which is very good in the resession we are going through .

[cuerack]

Its good to hear some business is fairly brisk.

Long time ago we had an old billiard/diner that had a dual height mechanism, (not Riley brackets) but it also had adjusters for leveling it in each of the four feet. These were circular steel plates about 5" in diameter & the best part of 1/4" thick. There was a special tool in the ball box that looked a bit like an old steel framed wooden screwdriver that had a short shaft about an inch long. Instead of a blade like a screwdriver it was just a round bar. This fitted into a hole in the edge of one of the discs & used to turn it. The disc was fitted to a threaded steel stud that engaged a captive nut in the leg. It was pretty simple but seemed very effective.

Do you know if this common to many makers or just a couple. Any ideas as to when it came into existance & if it was only used for less than full size tables or if it appears on any 6 or 8 legged ones?

Can't remember the maker but I think the trade label said Liverpool,

cheers