Various Antique score boards

[Mike P]

Geoff, thanks for an interesting thread. I haven’t had much time for posting, but when I lurk, it’s threads like this that tweak my interest. Also I like your & 100-uper, boards. They would spruce up any room. I have a few different smaller score boards, with my favourite (not smaller) being the one below. The previous owner had done some work on the cabinet, but didn’t get too far. I started to work on it but unfortunately it has become one of the many projects I have on the go.

Mike

[100-uper]

Nice example of a top of the range billiards/pool scoreboard. I can't make out the makers name, is it a Burroughes & Watts?

It's definitely worth finishing the restoration, these rarely come up for sale and I would put an auction estimate of about GBP 2500 on a complete example which appeared in a saleroom over here. The difficulty is always the replacement of missing buttons. I once knew a chap who would turn these to order from old composition billiard balls. Sadly that source is no longer available to me.

[Geoff Large]

Hi mike very nice board there , don't be tempted to over restore , keep the rollers numbers and the transfers of ball slides and name maker original even if some are faded , it makes for a more valued item .

Yes Peter it looks like a Burroughs and watts , but designs are sometimes cross over and I have seen cox & yeman boards identical and dare I say again Henning Bro's boards , I still think they had something to do with other manufacturers , maybe some manufactorers sold them unpolished for other firms to finnish with their own gold leaf makers name transfer , I knew of a board like this complete with lower cabinet at Bass brewery in Burton on Trent , also the top half was identical to aboard in Grantham which is definatley a Buroughs and watts , but it has damage to the front , door missing in the Centre ball storage area , and some wood Broken around the penny slots and glass missing .
this is what happens to them when they entyer club life, having probably been donated by say a Factory owner's house to the Factory club . A common thing on Bereavment or if the boss is downsizing .
I suppose old ivory balls are the best source for turning the buttons as they are originaly Ivory , but I think I am correct in saying it is now ilegal to return ivory , although i have seen a few antique restoraion Programes on TV that the renovators have very old supply of tusk that they still use , I think you have to prove it is older than 1940 or there about , but it is still a grey area to return ivory .

Many years ago before I worked for Elstons , I attended an auction at a country house near Leeds where the entire antique contents where for sale , my Uncle bidded for the table which had the buroughs and watts inner through frame rail system and was in mint condition ( it is now in China ) , I think the sale price was only around £150 at the time which he won ( 1978ish) But next to the table was a Full on cabinet Scoreboard like this in mint condition with large tall rotaing cue rack that also took the very long full and half butt rest and cue's , I said to my uncle you should also bid for that , but he was not interested , I know exactly what the scoreboard and cue rack fetched as a job lot which was fully loaded with all the rests and about 8 hand spliced cue's ...£75!!! and its always wrangled with me that I did not have the cash that day to buy it ,around a weeks wages in those days . as Fishermen say it's the one that got away .

I agree with Peter that the valuation is around £2500 , but make no mistake if Hamiltons where selling it , then it would be POA . prob around the £4000 price tag fully repolished with transfers intact .

Peter , I am sure Brian at Cheshire billiards make replica life pool buttons coloured and also spotted with ring for the spot side , as they also make New life Pool boards .

I think it's time I had a Camera with me at all time's just to make note's on differant designs from the manufacturers .

Next week I am taking out the Orme and Son's Burr Oak and ebony table from our web site advert , that came from the Rev Canon Houens church in Brodsworth near Doncaster , it is going to an old Farmhouse near Bridlington , I will take some photo's of this for the table threads , I think the buyer will require a nice oak Life pool later on ,so will be on the look out for an Orme one to match the table .
Ted ( my boss ),seems to think the table may have been donated to the Church by the owners of Brodsworth hall as it realy is a Grand table , but I have seen a picture of their Billiard room and a table is still in there that is even older than the orme it has very thin cushion cappings and looks to have the cox and yeman horse shoe pocket plates , so I do not think that was the case . but you never know . without written proof the conection cannot be made .

[Geoff Large]

The development of scoreboards is not related to the development of snooker in any way, the first impact of this game on scoreboard design coming with the introduction of digital electronics in the last twenty years or so.

Peter Iam glad you mentioned the digital scoreboard as I have had two electronic boards sourced for our local club that where once sold by riley for around £1500 each .
these where a coin operated by token purchased , the board could be used for a normal game or a programed speed game against the clock , they look the buisness with all the flashing lights etc , and where sourced from ebay at just £75 as they did not take off with riley and i suspect where developing faults that where not cost effective to repair . one has decided to cutt out at warm tempreture .
so i decide to look at the internet for a PC operated scoreboard that could be connected to say a 50 inch plasma , I came across the digital Snooker scoreboard from one Karaoke.com .

It looks the buisness for such a low price of £19.99 for a software download , it can be operated from a wireless key pad too that a Referee could operate , inset in the screen if a Camera was installed , you could have the Game in progress and the score on each side .
I will be recomending these to the local club ( Stapleford cue club , Nottinghamshire ) for the match table , they have regular snooker pro Exibitions every year , and are just undergoing a revamp to make the lounge and veiwing area larger for upto 150 people to view , I think a scoreboard like this will be very good . and not Expensive too . they will allready have the large screens and a lap top
See attached link .

http://www.onekaraoke.com/DSS/index.html

[ADR147]

The first of a couple of unusual billiard scoreboards is this "Bussey's Billiard Marker" which is enamelled tinplate formed around a hardwood block. The outer pointer marks up to 50 and the inner in multiples of 50 up to 500. Overall size is about 10.5 x 6.5 inches.

Bussey is a name which many people may not have come across before. They were essentially a general sports manufacturer and retailer a bit like E. J. Riley in their early days, but with more emphasis on other traditional sports (tennis, cricket, cycling, etc.) As far as I am aware they were never involved with the manufacture of full sized billiard tables, although they did extensively advertise billiard/dining tables. This marker would have been made to go with one of these, or perhaps a miniature model designed to sit on a table-top.

The company was established by George Gibson Bussey in 1856, at which time they were involved in the manufacture of leather goods. The turning point in their fortunes came in 1906 when the company was floated as a public company, expanding their existing manufacturing depot in London and establishing another in Paris. The London factory was built to accommodate 1,000 workers and more than double their production.

The scoreboard carries the logo of GGB with an arrow, which first appears around this time. There is also a bottom line of text which has been obscured by my flash, and reads "George G. Bussey & Co., Makers, London." This tells me that it was likely to have been produced a few years prior to their flotation, around 1903-06.

They managed to survive the first world war, but the recession of the 1930s saw them off, and the company went into voluntary liquidation in 1932.

maybe my biggest ever regret was selling one of these on ebay years and years ago when it first started, i was new to both the computer and assumed because of the condition it was in that the markers were reasonably common. (as i have always said cues are my thing!) anyway i went out to the pub and just let the auction run its course and sold the marker for £11. thinking about it i could still cry the one i sold by the way was identical but mounted in a dark walnut frame with hangers above rather than behind like a painting.

[Mike P]

Nice example of a top of the range billiards/pool scoreboard. I can't make out the makers name, is it a Burroughes & Watts?

It's definitely worth finishing the restoration, these rarely come up for sale and I would put an auction estimate of about GBP 2500 on a complete example which appeared in a saleroom over here. The difficulty is always the replacement of missing buttons. I once knew a chap who would turn these to order from old composition billiard balls. Sadly that source is no longer available to me.

I am nearing the end of some work being done on my table and hoping, that’s my next project. My only problem is finding a spot for it in my room. Yes it is a B&W, that was bought along with some other accessaries. I am glad to hear your estimated value. I guess I got a better deal than I thought. If my memory serves me right, I purchased the unit, along with, a revolving floor cue rack, walk rack for the extensions, full & half butts, Life balls, snooker balls, approx. 14 old cues and a triangle. I think the price was around $1500 Canadian! The guy was trying to sell this, accompanied by a matching table. I believe that everything dates from the 1920-30s. The material had not been used in years and the seller needed the money

Whenever I do get around to working on it, I will be posting questions for help with the missing buttons. With Life Boards I prefer one having some form of crown moulding at the top. Do you know if my unit had the option of a top to it?

I found a picture on the net showing what probably was B&W’s top variance of this unit.

Mike

[Mike P]

Hi Geoff, no I will not over do it when it comes to refurbishing. I plan to give the board a good cleaning and see how it looks. I will have a challenge, matching the board to the cabinet, due to the previous owner stripping the cabinet to the bare wood.
I haven’t looked at the piece in a while, so I am going by the picture. It looks like I will need some buttons and a handle for one of the doors. I will be in touch with the people you mention, for the buttons, do you know where I would find a matching handle?
You should definitely make part of your tool kit, a camera. You could make quite the scrap book. It is a soft spot of mine, but I am always impressed when viewing old billiard material. I have an old cue extension, that I have wondered the age of. It seems to date back to long before I ever remembering them being used. I will post it in another thread, hoping for someone to date it.

Mike

Hi mike very nice board there , don't be tempted to over restore , keep the rollers numbers and the transfers of ball slides and name maker original even if some are faded , it makes for a more valued item .

Yes Peter it looks like a Burroughs and watts , but designs are sometimes cross over and I have seen cox & yeman boards identical and dare I say again Henning Bro's boards , I still think they had something to do with other manufacturers , maybe some manufactorers sold them unpolished for other firms to finnish with their own gold leaf makers name transfer , I knew of a board like this complete with lower cabinet at Bass brewery in Burton on Trent , also the top half was identical to aboard in Grantham which is definatley a Buroughs and watts , but it has damage to the front , door missing in the Centre ball storage area , and some wood Broken around the penny slots and glass missing .
this is what happens to them when they entyer club life, having probably been donated by say a Factory owner's house to the Factory club . A common thing on Bereavment or if the boss is downsizing .
I suppose old ivory balls are the best source for turning the buttons as they are originaly Ivory , but I think I am correct in saying it is now ilegal to return ivory , although i have seen a few antique restoraion Programes on TV that the renovators have very old supply of tusk that they still use , I think you have to prove it is older than 1940 or there about , but it is still a grey area to return ivory .

Many years ago before I worked for Elstons , I attended an auction at a country house near Leeds where the entire antique contents where for sale , my Uncle bidded for the table which had the buroughs and watts inner through frame rail system and was in mint condition ( it is now in China ) , I think the sale price was only around £150 at the time which he won ( 1978ish) But next to the table was a Full on cabinet Scoreboard like this in mint condition with large tall rotaing cue rack that also took the very long full and half butt rest and cue's , I said to my uncle you should also bid for that , but he was not interested , I know exactly what the scoreboard and cue rack fetched as a job lot which was fully loaded with all the rests and about 8 hand spliced cue's ...£75!!! and its always wrangled with me that I did not have the cash that day to buy it ,around a weeks wages in those days . as Fishermen say it's the one that got away .

I agree with Peter that the valuation is around £2500 , but make no mistake if Hamiltons where selling it , then it would be POA . prob around the £4000 price tag fully repolished with transfers intact .

Peter , I am sure Brian at Cheshire billiards make replica life pool buttons coloured and also spotted with ring for the spot side , as they also make New life Pool boards .

I think it's time I had a Camera with me at all time's just to make note's on differant designs from the manufacturers .

Next week I am taking out the Orme and Son's Burr Oak and ebony table from our web site advert , that came from the Rev Canon Houens church in Brodsworth near Doncaster , it is going to an old Farmhouse near Bridlington , I will take some photo's of this for the table threads , I think the buyer will require a nice oak Life pool later on ,so will be on the look out for an Orme one to match the table .
Ted ( my boss ),seems to think the table may have been donated to the Church by the owners of Brodsworth hall as it realy is a Grand table , but I have seen a picture of their Billiard room and a table is still in there that is even older than the orme it has very thin cushion cappings and looks to have the cox and yeman horse shoe pocket plates , so I do not think that was the case . but you never know . without written proof the conection cannot be made .

[Acrowot]

Did any of you see the snooker table from the 1800's on "House in the Country" on BBC2m yesterday evening (Tues 12th October). It was in an old house in the Bristol/Bath area.

The table had heating under it from those years and had a fantastic old scoreboard from those days and it could be operated by electric for scoring with.

You will probably be able to see it on BBC2 iplayer.
:snooker:

[poolqjunkie]

I am nearing the end of some work being done on my table and hoping, that’s my next project. My only problem is finding a spot for it in my room. Yes it is a B&W, that was bought along with some other accessaries. I am glad to hear your estimated value. I guess I got a better deal than I thought. If my memory serves me right, I purchased the unit, along with, a revolving floor cue rack, walk rack for the extensions, full & half butts, Life balls, snooker balls, approx. 14 old cues and a triangle. I think the price was around $1500 Canadian! The guy was trying to sell this, accompanied by a matching table. I believe that everything dates from the 1920-30s. The material had not been used in years and the seller needed the money

Whenever I do get around to working on it, I will be posting questions for help with the missing buttons. With Life Boards I prefer one having some form of crown moulding at the top. Do you know if my unit had the option of a top to it?

I found a picture on the net showing what probably was B&W’s top variance of this unit.

Mike

wow, very very beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!

[Geoff Large]

Did any of you see the snooker table from the 1800's on "House in the Country" on BBC2m yesterday evening (Tues 12th October). It was in an old house in the Bristol/Bath area.

The table had heating under it from those years and had a fantastic old scoreboard from those days and it could be operated by electric for scoring with.

You will probably be able to see it on BBC2 iplayer.
:snooker:

Tyntesfield house near Bath , although the woman guide to the house states the table is a 1850 table you have to question that as the scoreboard system is electric and the house was not started to be be built until 1863 .
unless the table was bought and stored for around 13 or 14 years .

now electricty was invented way before 1863 but most homes where gas lighting until the turn of the century and I just cannot see an electroniic scoreboard being invented until around late 1880s at the earliest , the heating is hot water pipes just below the frame from say a back boiler of the open fire or maybe a main boiler room .

the program it was on is ESCAPE TO THE COUNTRY and can be veiwed on i player BBC2 , 5.15pm 12th Sept 2010 .

[poolqjunkie]

This is one of the best threads, I really enjoy it. I make a bit of furniture myself, and I love to look at antiques, especially rare snooker related items.
In the old days they spent too much time and efforts on making even the very little things really beautiful in so much details.

[Acrowot]

Here is a link to Tyntesfield House, with the old billiard table and scoreboard. It is worth a look. If you don't want to wade all through the video, the article is around halfway throught the video.

The scoreboard is really worth a look!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...s_10_Somerset/

:snooker:

[100-uper]

The commentary says this table is from 1850 which seems very early, but if true it must have the first electronic billiards scoreboard ever made! There seems to be two buttons inset into each cushion, presumably one operated the "spot" or "plain" side of the dial scoreboard.

The table is featured at 21 minutes into the iplayer video if anyone want to go straight to it. I have appended a few screenshots before it is taken down. I am interested in how the balls were retrieved as there is no obvious method of recovering them from the pocket. There may be a concealed opening or they may be returned to a point at the baulk end. I can't see enough of the table to be sure.






The last picture is of the under-table heating pipes. I assume this would have been an attempt to keep the rubber cushions soft. The whole thing must have been made to special order so it's pretty unique, whatever the date. No makers name advertised, but that wouldn't be unusual for a bespoke piece.

[Geoff Large]

Thanks for the still shots Peter , I can now say by looking at the pocket openings that the table looks like it has steel block cushions on them , the cushion shot with the buttons also shows that the cloth width from back of steel to nose of cushion looks in excess of 2inch which are normal cushions to 2-3/8ths which are steel block cushions , as we know burroughs and watts steel Vacume cushions where around 1891/93 invention , looking at the legs these are a bit too chunky for 1850s table which would have been slender like the Gillows table .
the slate looks 2 inch thick , early tables of 1850s would have been three or four section 1 inch thick .
I am pretty confident it has under table ball return obscured by the heating pipe,s which is another burroughs and watts design . or it has an opening at the bottom of each pocket to retrieve a potted ball .
I would date this table as around 1900 circa . the removable wood cappings that surround the steel block cushions carrying the wires to the electronic scoreboard , I am pretty sure that the two dials in the scoreboard are from the ilkeston company who made a simular scoreboard that acepted old pennies for a Game of billiards .
each 1d coin for one round trip of the pointers of the dial .
I do not think that the steel cushions where an add on at later date , because the whole table looks original as it is , and the two inch slates gives it a much nearer date to the end of the 19th century beginning of the 20th . and the cushion cappings are not thin like the gillows table .
also no top plate pockets which where a design of pre 1889/1895 . as discussed in another thread hidden plates where invented after that date .
so 1850 is 13 years before the house building date and definatley 40 to 50 years before this table was made .
Leveling the table is going to be difficult as it looks like those heating pipes are suspended from the under frame ?

[100-uper]

Geoff: I appreciate your analysis of the table and can't argue with this. Also the apparent discrepancy with the date of the house is suspicious, but I am mainly looking at the scoreboard.

The dial scoreboard you are probably referring to is made by the Reliable Billiard Marker Co., first of Alfreton and then Ilkeston, who were operating in the 1920s. But the dial marker as a design is in fact very early, and only gave way to the modern slide markers when the longer games of 100-up became popular around the 1870s. The dials on this board appear to score up to 20. Now this happens to be entirely consistent with a date around 1850 or 60, even if everything else looks more modern. I would ask why someone would design a scoreboard for a game of 20-up in 1900? This is my seed of doubt in dismissing the earlier date. Could it just be something built as an exhibition piece to show off the application of the latest technology?

There was of course a Great Exhibition in 1851 and amongst the manufacturers exhibiting tables was Burroughes & Watts. The others were Thurston's, C. P. Bouhardet (France), and J. Knill (Austria). I'm thinking that this table wouldn't have looked out of place in this context.