Old Burroughs and watts table circa 1869 /1870

[Geoff Large]

Yesterday I started work on a Large country estate house, table , based near Birmingham , the house was built in the 1600s and wings added in the early to mid 1800s to acomodate a billiard room ( 1830/60) ? .
I found a very nice flame mahogany table with Octagonal legs , the type I refer to as theepenny bit leg .
The top plates are very early type , and it has had later cushion blocks and the newer vulcanised strip rubber fitted around 1869 .
I was Explaining to the owners that the table would have had earlier type rubber that had to be heated by Zinc water containers , later in the day the owner asked me what the rack was under the table , on closer inspection I found a rack that had 6 metal Brackets for the Zinc hot water heaters .
I thought at first they where not long enough as the cushions are nearly 6 foot long and this rack was internal width of the under frame , but on reading about Zinc cushion warmers , I have found they also had Zinc Pocket opening warmers , so the long lenth Zinc warmers would not have to be as long as the cushion .
I see no use other than to store 6 Zinc cushion heaters under the table for this rack which lowers down at one end , and raises up to be out of sight .
I may be wrong , has anyone any idea's what it could be for ?
the Lady of the house asked me to supply photo's of the warmers as she thinks these where slung out many years ago .
the billiard room had not been used for many years and Furniture was piled high hiding the table from View , the current owners did not even know there was a table in there .
But the metal gas type shade whould have given the game away to me .
the gas light has been long replaced with a modern shade in the 1970/80s era ..

The cushion rubbers on the table where laminated rubber and rock hard and crumbleing , you can smell a horrible tar like smell from these old rubbers as they rot away , you can see where the original cushion holes have been plugged and rebored out for the newer Block and rubber , this work prob being carried out in the early 1870s / to late 1800 .
the amazing thing is it has only had one recover since that reblock and rerubber , as the tack hole's in the cushion blocks confirm this .
the main body of the cushion shows it has had many recovers before this .
the last reciover I estimate at ariound the late1960s/ 70s, by Padmore's of Birmingham just before they joined up with clare and thurston ? , their Recover plate is on one end , the very early burroughs and watts name plate on the other end .

I will take my camera today when I finnish off the Recover / Rerubber and try and take a few Photo's with the owners consent of course , they also have a very nice set of rules framed x 3 for Billiards / Pool / Pyramid Pool ., and of course the large B watts Life Pool scoreboard .
and around 10 hand spliced cue's one being a B&watts cook cue .

the table has linked to Central Heating radiator located under the table , which works very well , I was sweating doing the Rerubber .
from what the owners are saying the room was redundant and used as a store from around late 1930s to late 1960s . around 30 years .
they have been playing on these deteriating rubber cushions for a long time , I imagine they are going to be very surprised with the new bounce in the cushions from now on .

[roykay]

Hello Geoff,very interesting piece of history.
Any chance you could e mail me some pictures of all of it. Score board,table and heaters etc.
Regards Roy Bacon
geoffreybacon@btinternet.com

[Geoff Large]

just back from the Large house near Birmingham , I found out what the rack is under the table , it drops down and can be pulled out from under the table .
it is like an artists easel , folded out is is free standing , and is what I thought it was for , storing the 6 zinc water cushion heaters , the zinc heaters would have been carried from the Kithcen where the hot water was sourced , then each one put on the table , when play is to start , the cushion heaters would be stored on this easel rack .

as you can see from the last two photo's the rack is supported under the table and released by the wooden hook ,
when upright it forms a stand for the heaters to be stored on .
I do not hink that this heater rack has been put up for over 100 years by the amount of Dust on it .

note how thin the top plate pockets are where the leather shoud fit .

the Ivory name plate on the end cushion is one of the first produced by Burroughs and watts .

The room is 20foot to cieling height , and there is an orangery type roof light above , the room is very large and stored around the room in cuboards are all sorts of indoor and outdoor games . the lady of the house showed me the corner cuboard where an inbuilt cue rack for 20 cues is Hidden .
They have variouse Ivory Balls in boxed sets too .
I will not divulge where the house is or who the owners are , they reserve their right to privacy , and show these photo's in good faith by the owners permission , and as a point of intrest people who like to veiw old Billiard collectables . also to log for future referance what these items where used for like the storage rack for the Heaters , an item I have never come across before , so this item was new to me .

Geoff .

photo's

[jrc750]

Wow great looking room, all the wood panelling & window shutters, together with that fireplace looks amazing, and i love that huge painting on the opposite wall. Is the rest of the house in these proportions ? Lucky people

[Geoff Large]

Wow great looking room, all the wood panelling & window shutters, together with that fireplace looks amazing, and i love that huge painting on the opposite wall. Is the rest of the house in these proportions ? Lucky people

The house is around half the size of a football field , like all these country estate houses it was added to in later years .

[Acrowot]

Many, many thanks for the history and story about the house you have just been to Geof. Thanks for the photos too. Would be nice to see round some of those places and see the tables and equipment that goes with them.

Must be a great pleasure for you to work at such places.
:snooker:

[Geoff Large]

another thing which is very rare , the 1 and 1/4 inch thick slates are 100% perfect , no filler in any joint and you could not feel anything , a sign that this table was installed and never moved in it's entire lifetime . ( dust on that Fold out rack proves this ...lol )
The corner pocket openings where cutt at 3.5/8ths to the fall , 1/8th above standard template .
after rerubbering the table now will allow a ball to travel four and ahalf lenths when thrown down the table hard , this will increase to around 5 lenths when rubber is bruised in and cushion cloths slaken off .
the under table heating is very good being an old cast iron Radiator , the slates where warm to touch .
but could be Better if all that Junk was removed from under the table , there is also three plywood boards on top of the radiator , the lady of the house is going to store them elsewhere , to get the full benifit of that under table heat . which will keep those new rubbers 100% .

[100-uper]

The top plates are very early type , and it has had later cushion blocks and the newer vulcanised strip rubber fitted around 1869 .

Another interesting one Geoff. I wonder if you could expand on your dating? This leg appears in the Burroughes & Watts catalogue for 1885, and the design had changed quite significantly by the time of their 1889 catalogue, suggesting that it might not have had a long enough production run to take it back to 1869. Maybe you can ask them is they still have the receipt

[Geoff Large]

hi Peter , the Husband who's Family have owned the House for nearly 400 years was away on buisness , I only met him for the first 2 hours , he told me the original house was built in the 1600s but never went into great detail in exact date .
His wife who is French but has researched all the Family history and when changes to estate where made , told me that the Wing that was built for the Billiard room was Dated 1840 to 1860 ? again not an exact date . and that billiard table has never been moved from when it was first installed , his Grand parents buried the table with furniture , and it was rediscovered some 30 years later in the 1960s , when Padmore's just Recovered it .
although they mention no proof of sale of the table , they know roughly when the 2 extra Wings where added to the House . And they date the billiard table to this period .
Originaly I dated it 1880 until I delved further into it .
the wood is I suspect cuban mahogany ( very heavy cushions ) highly flamed veneered on top .

There are some designs about the leg that makes it much earlier than say a B&Watts 1880s table , the leg on the corner block is rounded not an acute angle like all other B&watts legs that I have seen .
the Cushion bolt threads are of a much earlier type also , the pointed part being very pointed rather than dome blunt ended , a trait of earlier bolts .
I am thinking around 1865/70 myself , it has a 5 piece thin slate bed so we know that three piece where the earliest and 4 piece quickly followed , this slate is 1 and 1/4 inch thick rather than the earlier 1 inch slate .
so realy you could say i am basing my dateing on various details ,

A the date of the Extension to the house (ALTHOUGH VAGUE )
B the CUSHION bolt holes have been filled in and later blocks fitted combined with the proof of Zinc heater being used on the cushions . and that there was little use for these when Vulcanised Rubber was being used by B&watts after 1865 .
C all the cue's have the double ended Billiard mace function with angled leather butt end , and there are 20 of these all stamped burroughs and watts london , plus the early ivory name plate on end cushion .
D the rounded blocks on each corner leg , a trait not far off a Gillows design .

I think what we have here is where slate beds have taken a leap forward in design from wood bed tables going through the transition of three / four / to five piece and making a little thicker , this table just falling short of vulcanised rubber and having to be modernised early on in it's life .

ignore the brassed light support that would have been an electric version of the original Gas light , it is now looking odd with a normal canopy shade hung from it .

The scoreboard looks like a later addition , this stands on it's own easel .
I am not sure about the date of the rule's . that stand on a shelf in the corner .

The octagonal legs are not a trait to B&watts and a design dating of say 1885/89 , thurston where useing that design many years ago , I think the table in buckingham palace that was swopped over to a George wright was octagonal legged thurston , this table being donated to hounslow conservative club i think , and I have worked on an octagonal thurston that was very early and had evidence of wooden bed being screwed down to the frame , but this one had a 4 piece slate bed a later conversion .
as we know many designs where used by many firms , the octaganol and tulip design by many of the large billiard houses , I do not think the leg design was a patent more of a time period of say Early Victorian ? , I just cannot believe that B&Watts only produced the octagonal leg after 1885 , they would be useing it before this date as others where .
just no evidence of a Brochure or advertisment has cropped up yet ? with an earlier date .

[loopy2]

Both informative and enlightening.
Thanks again Geoff

[ryanah]

Very informative display Geoff, great photos. Re the Rules of Billiards, I have one the same as that one, and if you look in the lower left hand corner you may see a date.
Mine says 500-- 1/3/74, so I take it as 1874. This may give some age on the table.
I worked on a similar table to this a long time ago and it had one of those hand held type scoreboards on the baulk and spot ends of the cushion rails. This particular table was in bad nick and the `truppenny bit`legs were veneered with some of the veneer missing. It had 1" slates, and just like your table had very heavy mahogany cushions.
The table we dismantled and stored in the clients outhouse, Im sure it will never see the light of day again.
Thanks again got a brilliant display. Ger.

[Geoff Large]

hi Gerard , I did not take the rules off the shelf to look for a date , But with youre dating of the same rules it is getting closer to that 1865/70 date that I think is around the time this table was installed maybe just before 1865 ? , I know burroughs and watts started to use Vulcanised rubber which was advertised as Frost free and in no need for heating around 1865 nd advertised it eversince from that date in their Books and Brochures , Thurston having been first to use it some 20 years previous in around 1845.

The octaganal legs are veneered in the same flame mahogany as the frame and cushions . you can always tell when they used Cuban Mahogany in the cushions as they as weigh much as Steel blocks .

Because the blocks have been replaced at some time and the cushion bolt holes filled and rebored out as the new blocks where smaller , i think this table was just before B&watts use of Vulcanised Rubber .
The Rack for the cushion rubber heaters tend to sway my thoughts this way as there would be no use for heaters on vulcanised rubber ?

Right got to take my van in for an MOt this morning and recover in Derby .

Geoff

[Acrowot]

In Geof and Peter, we have two living snooker and billiards encyclopedias. What a lucky lot us TSF members are.

So much knowledge on here.
:snooker:

[100-uper]

I love these country house "finds" they are like a time capsule. Quite often if you can put a date on one item you can date the lot. The Rules would be the best bet. The date mentioned by Gerard on his rules would be the revision date, so can be taken as "not before" but possibly much later.

The rule which was introduced by Burroughes & Watts in 1874 was the "spot-barred" rule restricting the number of pot reds from the spot. The following wording should appear somewhere: "1. A spot hazard is a red winning hazard from the spot into either of the top corner pockets. 2. Should a player make two consecutive simple spot hazards, the latter of the two does not score, but the red ball is replaced on the spot, and the opponent plays on from where the ball is placed. 3. It is not simple spot hazard should the ball be doubled in off the cushion, or kiss in off another ball, or should the striker play from below a line drawn through the centres of the two middle pockets."

The next revision came in 1885 with the introduction of the Billiard Association rules, which would still have been published by each manufacturer with their name prominent at the top, so I can't tell from the picture whether these are as late as this date.

Geoff, you mention that the scoreboard is a later addition, but this also appears in the B&W 1885 catalogue, so it might be contemporary. I guess the main question is whether cushion warmers might still be in use after the introduction of vulcanised rubber in the late 1860s. Again, reference to the 1885 catalogue has this item "CUSHION WARMERS, with clamps ...per set £3 10 0" (page 18) so perhaps this also describes what we have here? If so, we have three items all available to be supplied in 1885. Perhaps too much of a coincidence?

[cally]

Always enjoy reading geoff and peter's posts on these subjects, very much. Very interesting stuff...

Thanks guy's...