Unknown Table

[lewis_tudor]

hello guys
i have a full sized snooker table that i rescued from a workman's club that is being knocked down, but i dont know what make it is?!

the only plate on it is a Riley Burwat Arrowflite Re-rubbered Cushions
i hear the best/only way to tell is from a trained eye looking at the wooden legs??
so here is a photo and i look forward to the verdict!

many thanks

Lewis

[Geoff Large]

It is a Burroughs and Watts fluted leg circa 1900 / 1920s with concealed knee panel that hides the leg bolts , the knee panel having a chamfer at the rear , you slide the panel up and push in at the top when the bottom of the panel is visable .

although other makes made a fluted leg design it is the combination of that type of hidden knee panel that identifies it as a B&watts for me .

Geoff

[lewis_tudor]

ahh i see thanks very much Geoff. yeah i found out about those small panels when i was taking it apart. the table seems to be in quite good condition considering it was in a workman's club, is it very expensive to have the table and cushions covered?
i have marked all the parts up so it can easily be re assembled lol with a bit of sweat!

how many of these tables were made? and is it a good quality table/make?


regards
Lewis

[cazmac1]

Takes me back to the days when I first started playing snooker and the club had one of these tables it was one of my favourites

[Geoff Large]

ahh i see thanks very much Geoff. yeah i found out about those small panels when i was taking it apart. the table seems to be in quite good condition considering it was in a workman's club, is it very expensive to have the table and cushions covered?
i have marked all the parts up so it can easily be re assembled lol with a bit of sweat!

how many of these tables were made? and is it a good quality table/make?


regards
Lewis

Price for just a Recover range from £325 to £450 depending on what cloth you have and experience and quality of work the fitter has , and also what distance the fitter has to travel , do not forget VAT of 20% on top if one of the larger firms takes on the work .

burroughs and watts made a few hundreds maybe thousands of this design , don't forget they had Branches in most major cities around the UK inc scotland and ireland , also South Africa / Canada and India . not sure about Australia but I am guessing they did .
The fluted design was one of the most popular models that they did , some with oblong knee panels and others Earlier one's I think with rounded top to the panel like a church window .
if you can get a book called ( Billiards simplified or how to make Breaks ), in the back of this is some drawings of B&watts table leg designs also some other billiard furniture goods depicted in there too . youre leg design is in there illustration no3 the church window panel is illuistration no4a , notice on No 3 you could have the extra scroll work fitted to the underside of the Frame which sits each side of a leg . youre table has no scrolls .



The book is a little earlier than when youre table was made so take in the following note's.

Notice this leg in the illustration is a little more enlongated ( Victorian )than youre Table leg , this is an early Victorian type design with top plate cushions as they evolved they made the legs look a bit more chunky which is Edwardian style , so I would say youre table is more 1910-30s in date , youre pockets would be the concealed Finger in the cushion bolted up from under each cushion type, not top plates with youre leg design .

PLEASE NOTE THE PRICE OF A RECOVER WILL NOT INCLUDE SETTING UP AND LEVELING THE TABLE .

B&WATTS TABLES ARE WELL KNOWN FOR THEIR BREAK THROUGH IN DESIGNS , STEEL CUSHIONS JUST BEING ONE OF THEM AS AN UPGRADE TO A STANDARD TABLE . some under frame stringing of main bearers being also differant on some designs having no cross muntings and closer to middle of frame legs .these look odd when you see one , but as a whole B&watts are regarded as the rolls royces of tables . a claim I sometimes disagree with when you see some designs of say Orme / Thurston / George Wright etc .

[limecc]

I have a very similar looking antique table I purchased when they were knocking Castle Donington Power Station Social Club down. Paid just £200 for it by sealed bid, and it was the worst condition of 3 tables, and didn't have the original corner pockets.

I had it re-rubbered and some West of England match cloth put on, and when it was stripped, the chap told me it used to have - wait for it - 'horse hair cushions', but it had been converted to rubber cushions as evidenced by the crescent shaped pieces of dowel present in the cushion bolt holes. He said the cushion height had been altered accordingly.

Is this horse hair stuffed cushion thing true, or is it a load of doggy-doo?

(I'll try and get some pictures of the table when I can actually post one!)

[Geoff Large]

horse hair Brushes , but the cushions where stuffed with layers of lint or felt , some fitters in this area also shaped some horse hair into the corner profiles , I have had the pleasure of restuffing a gillows table many years ago in the same manner .
I am guessing that the fitters name was Roger who told you about horse hair stuffed cushions ? I used to work with him for 23 years .
how long have you had the Table ?

I doubt that any Burroughs and watts tables especialy with this leg design had any stuffed cushions , but could have had the larger Strip rubber profile and when reblocked had to have the old bolt holes plugged and redrilled .
I only have come across Gillows and Thurston tables that have had stuffed lint/felt cushions on .
Burroughs and watts where Established in 1836 having served under Thurston's previousley , rubber cushions where being used to replace Felt stuffed cushions by 1835 , I would think that William burroughs and business partner Watts would have started their new business useing the new rubber type and not Felt stuffing .



the illustration above of rubber profile shows why youre table has been replugged when the newer lower cushion on the right has been modified to youre table , the higher rubber wood blocks on the left removed and the lower wood blocks added , this will make the cushion bolt holes lower than the hole in the slate , so plugging and reboring new cushion bolt holes was the norm . although they are describing lowered steel cushions the process of refitting this lower cushion Blocks and rubber profile to standard cushions would have been the same except they modify the old cushion , not replace the whole lot with new steel block type cushions .

The illustration to the next page on the right
shows the new patent steel cushions .
Geoff

[limecc]

I got it in the mid 90's, and it was laid up in a shed for several years. Me and my old man then decided to build a snooker room on the land next door to his house, and we got a little carried away and it ended up being quite a posh setup with old cinema style bench seats (from the same club), central heating and the like. It came with a Joe Davis designed metal lampshade! It looks identical to the illustration you posted on the top right.

I can't remember the fitters name. You may be right, but he was a younger chap who was most impressed when I came out with a large engineers spirit level I'd borrowed from work. I think he went and purchased something along the same lines but a little more modest.

Saddest part of the story is when I started using the snooker room as a base for my old computer business, and the place became full of parts and I had no time to play. Then there came family commitments (marriage and new house to renovate) which meant I couldn't play on it. Then a couple of years ago dad sold the house, but kept the land and snooker room. This meant it had to be disconnected from the power and gas supplies which is why I can't play on it now. However when the weather warms up I intend to get a suitcase generator!

The table is located at Sutton-in-Ashfield, NOTTS.

[Geoff Large]

It was not Roger then he would have been 46 in the mid 90s and I was 41 , may have been Brian anthony or Mick pykett if you used a local firm .
I did work on the tables in the late 70s Early 80s at the Castle donnington power station club though ,and a few other power stations dotted around the Midlands .
right off to bed now , I am going to potters bar tommorow to dismantle a table take it to Winchester stay over Recover and set it up the next day .
~and I have had an engineers level since 1977


Geoff

[lewis_tudor]

Limecc

Lol nice storey! And hopefully you will be able to get back on the table soon! So how much would your/my table be worth now?
I dismantled this one myself with the help of a few others for the lifting and surprising it wasn't to bad just that a lot of the main bolts were pretty stiff and well in there! Its just all about having the right tools lol
Geoff, where are you located? And how much would you charge for transporting and setting up a table?

Lewis

[Geoff Large]

youre table is only worth to you what you paid for it , full sized tables can be bought on ebay for just 99p or over £30.000 .
there are tables out there in houses for sale that are given away , we actualy charge £275 plus vat to take them away .
Only Firms can get say £2000 to £4000 for a standard table , but they do put a lot of work into getting that figure like Repolishing , recovering , rerubbering , new nets leathers and may need new tackle balls etc . plus the cost of bringing a table in or taking a table out .

I would get quotes from various firms to errect and put right any improvements that you require to youre table , do not always go for the lowest price , Factors like experience and what cloth or rubber are they useing should be asked .
always look at a quote like for like , the cloth you should be looking at is 6811 tournement grade cloth ( not club 6811 grade ) they used to grade the same cloth gold and silver and some still use that as a description of the two grades .
Rubber is northern rubber . only use this brand no other .

so for example just on a Recover you get quotes of

6811 gold or tournement £400 + vat
or 6811 silver or club £370 = vat

and some just gives a quote of 6811 as a description but say at £350 + vat

or just describe the cloth as Strachan branding ( do not fall for this trick ) as strachan also make 777 grade which is for pool tables and Iv'e seen a few recovered in this thick long napped pool cloth . and for same prices as good quality cloth . there are as many cowboys out there as in any trade so beware .

You have to be very carefull in getting a quote always ask what grade cloth or rubber they are going to use and ask how many years they have trained as a fitter and how long they have been trading . it would be advisable to get a quote from a firm as close to you as possible , then ask a few firms further afield .
most quotes will be around £30 apart , any lower than this , then you have to question are they a hit a run team .

I do not take any orders from the forum to do Private work , I have an agreement with work that I do so much that I declare to them and therefore have reached my quota for this , and to be honest I do like my weekends off to recover from tired muscles from lifting slates all week , but you may contact the firm I work for for a quote , www.elstonandhopkin.co.uk although I must state I am not advertiseing for the firm , you are free to contact as many Firms and I do advise you to do this . just make sure they have a good reputation , and seek advise from other's who have used their service's .

I like to give my information on this forum as a Member and it is aginst Forum rules to tout or advertise as such .

Geoff

[limecc]

Geoff - I just noticed your edited post describing the cushions. What an asset you are for the forum!

Is there any slender hope that someone might have some original corner pockets for me? They were set into the cushion quite deeply and the ones that have been fitted obviously don't go.

I wish I could remember who did my table.. I think he was relatively new and did some work at Ashfield Snooker Centre where I used to go and that's how I found him, but there was his younger buddy who seemed to have the experience. I walked in on them and found they had bought along two new cloths. Strange I thought. I have a suspicion one was a cheaper cloth, but I stayed around and made sure the one marked 'West of England' went on.

Re, the Castle Donington PS tables: The middle one I bid more money (£300) on, but was disappointed when it went to our Ratcliffe social club. When this one also closed, a mate of mine purchased it and built a similar snooker room to mine! When we dismantled it, we found one of the slates was split side to side, so I was glad I didn't win it after all. Plus the legs were boring.

It doesn't seem to have any noticeable difference to play on, having 5 slates instead of 4, I suppose it was jacked up incorrectly.

[Geoff Large]

Slates can break for various reasons , mostly they break when inexperienced fitters drop them or experienced fitter too ....lol it can happen , but some can break if jumped up and down on , most modern tables thats tables built from 1890 onwards have 5 slates , if a table has 4 or even three slates then they tend to be thinner slates , and older tables .
If you have a picture of the pocket plates I may be able to help in locating some plates for you ,
if you post a picture of the table to c.large@btinternet.com being as you do not have enough posts to edit photo's yet , I will see if I have any . or if not if Roger has some

if you can dismantle one cushion off and take a photo of the pocket plates that will help too .

I have worked on thousands of tables in the past and just cannot recall what tables where at Castle donington club .

[limecc]

Thanks Geoff. I will do so as soon as I can. I'd love to know how old my table is now I know who made it.
(Fro memory I made a counting error - my mates table obviously has 6 slates!)

[Geoff Large]

Thanks Geoff. I will do so as soon as I can. I'd love to know how old my table is now I know who made it.
(Fro memory I made a counting error - my mates table obviously has 6 slates!)

you mean 5 slates .