Rare thomas clulow table

[Geoff Large]

Today on our rounds we find , A rare Thos Clulow table manufactured around 1861/1870 , there is a makers name plaque on the table with a date of 1861 but I think this would be the established date of the firm .
A manchester billiards firm that I suspect was not around long as I have never seen one before , I am sure 100upper ( Peter ) may know little more about them .
This one has been butcherd a little in that someone has fitted some strange cushion bolts that require a special tool to get them off , but you can see clearly that they have bodged the hole up to fit these larger threaded nuts .
I suspect someone has redrilled and retapped the original bolt hole lug within the slate as the original lead that secures the lug is still intact .
I had to tap the cushion nuts loose to get them out with a screw driver , only to find the special nut removal tool later on in the strip down fastend to the under frame , ah well I will know next time where it is , but feel that the table could do with a set of new cushion bolts and insert lugs to put it right .
the table is a 10ft with a 4 section thin slate which is around the date of manufacture so correct to the table .
The original pocket plates are not on the table , they have at sometime been replaced with a newer top plate that is not recessed into the wood capping .
To sum things up , the table is not realy a good one to play on the modern game on , in that the thin slates are not true in level , and the cushions bolts and the top plates are bodged .
at some time the table has been in store as there is a label from a removals company on the cushions dated 14th January 1925 .

look at the photo's The legs would have had buttons not a knee panel , so would the cushions , you can see someone has fitted cushion screw on panels to hide the bodged cushion bolt holes . there are cetainly some cowboys about , why the hell they could not just fit nomal cushion bolts instead they fit the two prong type nut that no billiard fitter would have a fitment to get them off , lucky for me they where loose , and that I did eventualy find the removal tool fastend to a hook under the table when I took the slate's off .

Geoff

[ryanah147]

Nice find with the Thos Clulow table Geoff. Never heard of that company, not to mention that pattern of cushion bolt. Just as good the bolts were a bit loose, or that tool was found.
In a worse case scenario Geoff, if the bolts were real tight, have you any ideas of how you would have extracted them?
G.

[maryfield]

You could knock the round with a hammer and scewdriver. I have had to do that on an old antique table which had this style of bolt in the underframe.

[100-uper]

I have only one contemporaneous reference to this company and that comes from the Manchester Guardian of 19th April 1856. At that time they were advertising as "Clulow, (late Bispham)" with the address "26 (late 35) Windmill Street, near the Theatre Royal."

So 1856 looks like the approximate transition date when one partner took over from the other. No idea how long Mr Clulow lasted, but clearly he was still going in 1861.

The only explanation of the 1861 date that I can think of, unusual as it might be, is this is the date of manufacture. I've never seen that before.

[Geoff Large]

Many thanks Peter for the info I did wonder if it may be the date of manufacture but thought maybe the date Clulow established himself ? ,

Hi Gerard , I would have got a grinder or file to a flat spade bit and manufactured one to fit it , just grind a middle section out leaving two prongs , as luck would have it I carry a few old spare spade bits I bought off ebay , the realy old type with the large square lugg that fits in the chuck of my old Brace .

yes Maryfield I did just that knock it round with a screw driver , there was two that i did not think where going to come loose , but a few knocks n the end thread and they came loose .

Geoff

[Terry Davidson]

Here in North America the older Brunswick 8-leg tables have similar rail bolts with a flat head and 2 holes on either side on the top and as I used to own one of these I had to have a special tool made to get the bolts loose when I wanted to put my match cloth on the table.

I did manage to get the loose ones with a good pair of needlenose pliers but there were a few I just couldn't get without ruining the pliers.

I doubt if any of these tables ever made it to Europe or Britain but if you ever happen to see one from the 1930's & 40's be prepared to have one hell of a time getting it dismantled

Terry

[Geoff Large]

Hi Terry , I do not think that these where the original bolts to the cushions , at sometime some one has put these on at a later date , it just maybe the old bolts had lost their slot with wear or they had misplaced the bolts in 1925 when the table came out of store , I see no need to put normal slotted bolts on the table frame and these two pronged things on the cushions .
the original cushion bolts would have had a turned button to hide it , the table has had some panels made up to hide the mess underneath of these bodged holes and nuts .

I have come across the slotted bolts before , but just cannot place where , but am pretty sure it was on a Baggatelle table .
and now and a again you do see the removal tools on ebay for them under brace and bits heading , if the owner has new bolts for the cushions I think the removal tool may find it's way into my tool box .

Geoff

[dazvinci]

hi , geoff whats the value on a table like that ?

[dazvinci]

hi geoff whats the value on a table like that?

[Geoff Large]

Depends on who is the buyer a Billiards collector would pay top dollar to own such a rare make table , but becaue it is a bulky item they are not looked upon as genral antiques like a davenport writing desk for instance renovatedI ,I value the table at £4000 , as it is with just a recover £1500 .
It is not an ideal table to play the modern game on the pocket plates would soon break under power shots etc .
We are at the moment doing a full refurb on it rerubber cushions and total repolish , new nets leathers and rails , replace all nuts in slates and new cushion bolts , The owner likes the fact it is an unusual and rare make and therfore when some would have scrapped the table , he chose to save it , even though he has room for a full size , he thinks it best to keep the 10ft .

Geoff

[philip in china]

Geoff, You said there are 4 slates. Are these different sized to keep the joint away from the blue spot?

[Geoff Large]

no the joint is on the centre pocket , it was not until little later that the problem of slate impact nibble of this joint made manfacturers to alter the size of the middle slates, to offset the joint to one side of the centre pocket , and then when slate thickness increased to 1.5 inch and later to 2 inch the slates where made with 5 sections so the joint issue on middle fall became impossible .

[dazvinci]

hi Geoff, thanks for your reply, i have aquired a Thomas Clulow table(12x6) 4 pc slate, you said that it was rare, is that because of the maker or the size of the table? i have tried to find out some info about the table/maker but cant find anything. also the date on mine says 1854 there are tags on it saying it had improved low pitch cushions by j lowe and was re rubbered by e j riley but no dates when. the table has some signs of wear for its age and is still in good playing condition. I am contemplating selling it but i would like to find out the value, i have some pictures but i am not sure how to upload them to this site. if you could help in any way i would be very greatfull thanks

[100-uper]

It would be nice to have some photos.

I can tell you that James Lowe was a billiard-table maker and billiard-room proprietor in Manchester at the same time that Thomas Clulow as active. He was adjudged bankrupt in 1868 when presumably he stopped trading. Reference to E. J. Riley would be much later, probably 20th century.

[Geoff Large]

hi Geoff, thanks for your reply, i have aquired a Thomas Clulow table(12x6) 4 pc slate, you said that it was rare, is that because of the maker or the size of the table? i have tried to find out some info about the table/maker but cant find anything. also the date on mine says 1854 there are tags on it saying it had improved low pitch cushions by j lowe and was re rubbered by e j riley but no dates when. the table has some signs of wear for its age and is still in good playing condition. I am contemplating selling it but i would like to find out the value, i have some pictures but i am not sure how to upload them to this site. if you could help in any way i would be very greatfull thanks

It is rare because the maker was not produceing tables long and it is rarer because it is a 10ft , not many 10fts around and some people cannot fit a full size in their rooms , as 100-uper as stated they went out of buisness and no mention of them after a few years of manufacture maybe through berievement , so not many years of production , they are not a famous brand like B&watts or thurston etc , but just a manufacturer that was not around long , youre only market to gain top price for a table with this makers name on it , is to a billiard collector , of which there are not many and even less without a table , and are actualy looking for one . there may be a person in the Manchester area with a large victorian house that may want one to fit in with there renovations ? and just wants a local made table , the clulow brand would be an ideal fit . Renovated the value would be £4000 for this 10ft , a full size unless it is highly carved , is going to be worth £2500 to £3000 fully refurbed . these are dealer retail prices not private sale prices and VAT would be added to the price .
As a table to play the modern game on , I am afraid it would not attract much intrest . it has the joint on the middle slate fall which is inclined to chip away as balls are rebounded against it , and thinner slates which do not keep their trueness .
we are at this moment renovating the Thomas clulow table and will shortley be installing it before the end of the month for the customer , I will post a photo when it is completed .
An even Rarer table we have in for a customer is a Burroughs and watts genuine 9ft STEEL BLOCK , now ive come across cutt down full sized steel blocks , but this one was made like it , so very very rare .

Any way put a photo of youre Clulow table on this thread , it may stir some intrest in it and also include the size of the table , and a photo of the name badges + thickness of slate ( do not add the wood lining that the cloth is attached to just the slate thickness it should be around 1 inch .) and just out of intrest a photo of the cushion bolts as the one we have in had some wierd way of attaching the cushions with split slotted bolts rather than the traditional one.s as used around that time .
I have had to repace all the inlet thread lugs within the slate and replace all the cushion bolts to modern fit , as the bodged split nut type where not upto the job of getting the cushions tight upto the slate , and rebound would have been affected .

Send me the photo;s to c.large@btinternet.com and I will put them up as soon as i load them into photobucket .

Geoff