Thurston table origins

[vid]

Hi, as a new member here I was just wondering if someone could help with ageing the table we have. It was recovered from a local town hall wher it was being used as a stage!! It has a Thurston & Company plate on it with the address as catherine street so I assume it is pre 1900. On the other end it has a 'new improved cushions' plate by Burroughes and Watts. I have looked everywhere on the assembled table and there appears to be no serial number on it. Under neath the ends stamped into the wood is W D Stevens and T Barry, the T barry being repeated at the other end without the WD Stevens. The only other name written on to the woodwork is R Lawson, Durham. The legs are fat round bulbous and fluted and have rectangular covers 90 degreed at one end but octagonal at the other. I talked briefly to Peter Clare about the table but he was relatively vague and referred the stampings as players of the inter war period, but having read some of the posts on here that seems less likely. Any ideas?

[100-uper]

I think we need some pictures please. Plate(s), marks, leg and overview of the frame should do.

Sounds as though there has been some work on it over the years by various companies. Burroughes & Watts first started using the term "Improved Cushions" in 1873, although it is likely to be a lot later than this. Thurston were at Catherine street from their formation in 1814 to 1902 when they moved to Leicester Square, so that reference could be any date in between. W. D. Stevens is another table manufacturer, operating in the 1920s, who might have done some maintenance on it.

It may be a long-shot but there was an "R. Lawson" who was connected with the Princess Billiard Saloon, Newcastle, in 1902, possibly as proprietor, my reference isn't clear. That isn't a million miles from Durham. Are these additional names stamped or hand-written?

[vid]

Thanks very much for the reply, I'm away from home for a while but will post pictures as soon as I can and as soon as I work out how. W D Stevens and T Barry are stamped into the wood the R lawson is pencilled onto the frame in a corner but is difficult to make out as the table is still assembled. The out building that houses it may shortly be converted into living accommodation so it would be nice to know its provenance and find another new home for it. Where the corners are bolted together is very worn so I think it may have moved around quite a lot. It may have been in Arundel Castle for a while as it was languishing in the town hall there - how it came to have an R Lawson from Durham on it is anybodies guess. The T (of Thurston)and the C (of Comp)on the name plate have completely disappeared. I have looked everywhere for serial numbers but cant find any and the legs dont seem to comply with a standard No 4. It has no particular engravings and is pretty plain with a well worn patina. As I said I will post a few photos when I get back

[Geoff Large]

Iv'e seen the name R lawson stamped in cushions before Peter , maybe the Bench fitter who worked on the cushions for thurston ,Ii realy should take a few photo's of these stamped in names which often crop up on various table manufacturers cushions but not too often on frame work , one thing I have to ask is , are the pocket plates top plate type , this will more or less date it to earlier than around 1890s , if they are concealed type fixings to ends of cushions then later than 1890s , prob 1895 onwards .

Another item or modification to look out for , early thurston table would have had the rubber blocks reduced in size for modern rubber and the bolt holes plugged and redrilled for modern blocks , if this has not been done then again later 1900s rather than mid to early 1900s
Large legs rather than thin slender legs point to late victorian or early edwardian , are the knee panels on the legs dowled or screw key slotted ?

some photo's of the table would assist more

Geoff

[vid]

Said I was goin g to be away - didnt expect to be away this long! It seems that until I get several more posts under my belt I cant send photos.

I really appreciate the replies from Geoff and 100-uper and I am sorry I didnt get back sooner with a response - personal reasons.

My reasons for this are 2 fold - firstly having started on the research i found it all fascinating - I was disappointed by the reponse I got from Thurstons themselves as the information appears to have been mostly wrong. The fact that the table must be pre 1902 (Catherine Street) and doesnt seem to match any of the pictures of thurston tables is intriguing, but I dont think its anything special.
Secondly the building it is currently housed in is about to be converted so the table is being sold. The best offer my father (who is 85) has had was £250 on ebay and he was expected to dismantle it and load it for the purchaser. That really does seem to be a rather small amount for such a table. It is in good playing condition and I would have thought someone would rather have a table with the history this has than a new one with no history at all. without a reasonable price it will almost certainly be broken up eventually and dumped, which I personally would think is tragic.

[vid]

I had a look at the cover plates on the legs and it looks like they all have a small metal pin (a brad maybe) at either end of the inner moulding, can see no dowels and the plate does not move

[Geoff Large]

Brads in knee panels are a cowboy way of a quick fix , I come across nailed on knee panels all the time , key hole slot or dowl for above face fixing you will find many manufacturers use that method but inner slot within moulding is the burroughs and watts way .

you can send some photo's to c.large@btinternet.com I will then post them for you .

Don't be surprised at the low price full sized tables are going for it's supply and demand , today there is no demand for them unlike the 1980s so supply is many buyers few , so they go for whatever someone is prepared to offer , unless the table has gone through a full renovation and is like new or it is higly carved or had a famous owner , then it is classed as a run of the mill table and will very rarely fetch above £200 to £400 , some even givbe them away free , the firm I work for charge to take them away , we often end up scrapping them if too rough to renovate . some people can spend over £3000 having atable refurbished , then sell it a year later for around £1000 to £1500 .
its a buyers market I'm afraid , now if it was a 9 or 10ft then they are thin on the ground and always hold their price unless rough .

Geoff

[vid]

Hi Geoff,



thanks very much for this I will attempt to copy this as a post as well. The table has had quite a chequered past as it came to my father rescued from the youth club in Arundel where it was doing duty as a stage in the 1980s. He had the table properly refitted with new cushions cloth and pockets by a fitter from Portsmouth. Its a shame we have to part with it but the building is needed for something else now and it has to go. I wouldnt be altogether surprised if it was owned for a time by the Duke of Norfolk as that is a likely source for the Youth Club but that is pure conjecture. I have attached the pictures of the end plates the table itself a side view and one of a leg. Please take your pick as to which ones are most relevant unfortunately not that good a shot of the table from the top



Cheers,

Mark Hansford

[Geoff Large]

Iv'e just got back in from a wedding today so will have sometime tommorow to download a few of youre photo's you have sent me , I can date the table to around 1890 to 1899 it has top plates but the cushion woodwork has wide cappings , earlier tables would have had slim cappings , so we can say back end of the 1990s , top plates where becomneoing old fasioned to use as the new hidden plate was being used by all billiard table manufacturers after 1895 ish , but they must have still used some of the old stock of pocket plates up and carried on making top plate tables until the late 1890s . this table I believe due to the wide cappings to be later on in the 1890s . by 1900 I would think all manufacturers would be selling concealed pocket plate fixings as the prefered type of pocket plate , top plates becomeing defunct due to their weak structure they often broke .

[vid]

whats the best way to sell it then, any takers on here - I tried looking on the for sale site but couldnt find a single full size table for sale. Reckon by the sound of it he might get a decent price for the slates if noone wants it. does seem a shame that such majestic pieces have such little value. Its been part of the family home for nearly 30 years and its a real wrench to think that having rescued it, it wil not find a new home. We were thinking of storing it but not if it has no value or a prospect of ever having much value.

Oh well. Thanks Geoff for the information

[vid]

Just thought I would post a note on this one - seems a shame but the builder who is doing the work on the new accommodation has offered £200 for the table and my father is taking the money as it has to be moved out of the way - the table is going to be broken up tomorrow and the slates used for garden furniture. 120 year old Thurston RIP

[philip in china]

It certainly is a shame but people just don't want them. Very few people have the space to accomodate them- a 7 m x 5 m is not a reality in modern houses. So supply exceeds demand and this reflects in the price.