Steel Block Cushions - Pro and Con

[maryfield]

Geoff, I too use the brace and bit, but I have seen one company that uses a torque wrench to ensure the bolts are evenly tightened. On the hexagonal bolts. Don`t know if it makes a difference. They seem to thinks so. To each their own, I suppose.

[hsn]

Very informative read indeed. Thank you Geoff. I was asking you about the girth/thickness of the bolts. I don't know how thick the slate bolts are in the first place. Can you please share this information for reader's curiosity.
Additionally, have you ever come across tightening a bolts till whole chunk of slate comes apart alongwith the nut inside?
Have you come across a marble/dolomite bed table?

The bolts used to secure the steels are just cut down cushion bolts , they are the same thread as the slate insert bolt on burroughs and watts tables . so there is no differanc in girth of the bolt to a normal cushion bolt . modern chinese steels may differ with thread and I have come across some lower cost chinese steels with such thinner bolts .
all bolts on cushions are tigntened up with my carpenters brace and wide bit unless they have a socket head then I use my socket brace with 17mm socket ,,until tight then given an extra 1/8th to a 1/4 turn to make sure they are tight , the bolts also have good thick penny washers on this makes the differance not the size of bolt but a washer that will span the slot in steels .
on modern steels there is no cushion bolt slot just a large hole .
if you are playing on a table with steels on why not just measure the lenth of the back edge of the steel where the cloth meets the capping , deduct 1/8th for thickness of cloth and you have youre lenth with the outer end woods on , you can normaly feel where this end wood stops so you could then deduct this off , if you cannot feel it take a magnet to find where the steel starts .
Testing bounce directly after a recover is not going to give its true speed as new cloth will trap the rubber and restrict it from its full responce in bounce , when the cloth has given a bit the bounce will be better .
as for testing a cushion after fitting if I have gone through my procedure of tightening then no further turn will be possible without risking Bolt snap off , what I am trying to say is so what if the rubber is not as good as you thought after a recover , is it the fitters Fault ? some tables are faster than others but it may not all be down to the cushion rebound , other things such as hieght of block BY MANUFACTURER can not be correct , the rubbers are old and require replaceing , or the cloth nap is long or cloth is thicker then last cloth and slowing the ball speed down , or the most common fault is the cushion cloth is tight and restricting the bounce , which playing in will solve .
as stated before the total run lenth of a ball thrown down a table is 5 to 5.5 runs on a good set of steels , and 4.5 on standard cushions . there is always going to be a table that is alittle faster , you also have to take in the worn down cloth and tempreture of the room , moisture content too .

Geoff

[Jono857280]

Very informative read indeed. Thank you Geoff. I was asking you about the girth/thickness of the bolts. I don't know how thick the slate bolts are in the first place. Can you please share this information for reader's curiosity.
Additionally, have you ever come across tightening a bolts till whole chunk of slate comes apart alongwith the nut inside?
Have you come across a marble/dolomite bed table?

Hsn ,

I'm very guilty in saying this has happened to me. I overtightened a bolt and a sheared off a 1 inch x 4 inch chunk of slate at the corner of the slab. Its my own table. I could have literally burst into tears.

However having consulted a friend in the marble trade, we managed to refil and cavities (slate with flake from the inside), to create a super-clean fit. I then used a strong epoxy to re-fit the chunk of slate. The refit was actually very clean. The slate was then sanded with a light grade sandpaper and then the micro crack that defined the edge of the chunk was filled with dental plaster. Suffice it to say, that the bolt hole was also filled.

That was about 18 months ago . Since then, I can tell you the table has played beautifully thru the seasons. There are no irregularties in ball movement on that part of the table. I went thru exhaustive tests before it was recovered for uneveness etc.

However, I was a prize idiot for overtightening with a socket wrench and paid the price. If there is such a thing as 'Snooker-police' I may still be arrested.

The lesson here (that I've never actually read anywhere on this forum) is: DO NOT OVER-TIGHTEN SLATE BOLTS!!!

Geoff - Have you got any similar kind of tales that would make me feel better..;(

Jono.

[philip in china]

An old friend of mine once said "You can't get tighter than tight. It snaps." As my hobbies, other than snooker, are weight training, judo and blacksmithing I have forearms like JCB hydraulics. When I was younger I used to get into the habit of tightening down screws left handed as that way I didn't snap as many. Of course even if you don't snap a bolt you can strip thread or stretch the bolt neither of which is good news. Does anybody use spring washers? They would hold the nut nicely. Certainly I can see the attractions of a torque wrench as mentioned earlier. I wonder what setting would be used.

[hsn]

Torque wrench, hmm sounds like a good idea to make sure you do not break the slate. Geoff has said that he does an additional 1/8 or 1/4 turn after tightening the slate bolts. I was wondering could some one clarify what type of thread is used on these slate bolts; standard, fine or extra fine? As finer thread will need more turns for a similar torque as compared to a standard threaded bolt. But finer thread is also more torque resistant hence more powerful and therefore more dangerous to slate.
Can someone also comment on the size of the slate bolt? Geoff has mentioned that he uses a 17mm key for hex bolts. I've worked out the diameter of the bolt should be 10mm (M10, provided a metric bolt is used) from this chart.
http://www.imperialsupplies.com/pdf/...hSizeChart.pdf
If they are standard slate bolts the thread is a standard one for sure but I cannot measure neither the diameter of the bolt nor the length and diameter of the barrel nut/cross dowel. Can anyone help please? bd.jpgbs.jpg

An old friend of mine once said "You can't get tighter than tight. It snaps." As my hobbies, other than snooker, are weight training, judo and blacksmithing I have forearms like JCB hydraulics. When I was younger I used to get into the habit of tightening down screws left handed as that way I didn't snap as many. Of course even if you don't snap a bolt you can strip thread or stretch the bolt neither of which is good news. Does anybody use spring washers? They would hold the nut nicely. Certainly I can see the attractions of a torque wrench as mentioned earlier. I wonder what setting would be used.

[jrc750]

You are asking a lot of very strange and specific questions hsn, it sounds as tho you are trying to get all the specific measurements in order to manufacture your own tables, is this the case ???

[hsn]

I love the game but I hate club tables! I want to do a research as to what makes a table rebound better.
I wish I am fortunate enough

You are asking a lot of very strange and specific questions hsn, it sounds as tho you are trying to get all the specific measurements in order to manufacture your own tables, is this the case ???

[Geoff Large]

just back from devon so aquick reply .

Torque wrench use ...ok for the none experienced to use , but after so many years turning bolts into slate , you get a feel for the tightness and an inbuilt torque that just comes natural to a fitter of many years .
Brunswick american pool tables fitters always use torque wrenches and use this as a sales pitch , I once went to a trade show in london and the Brunswick sales person said they only sell tables that have to be fitted by persons they have trained and that if I wanted to sell and fit thier tables I would have to go on a Day course where they would show me how to fit a table , I asked him how long their top fitter had been fitting tables he replied 10 years , I explained how long I had worked on tables of various makes enven their own and who had trained me , but it made no differance he stated that all their bolts are torque fitted and you have to be trained how to tighten them ?.
you can fit any bolt or nut without some one training you , all you have to realize is if you overtighten you will stretch the bolt , more tight and it will snap , torque settings for bolts are determined by the bolt manufacturer not a billiards firm or even Brunswick .

my 1/8th to 1/4 turn was taught to me as a guidline by two fitters from differant firms , but they where trained from passed down info from other fitters and you can trace these fitters all back to the great firms of the past like Orme , thurston , B & watts etc .

You can only torque the hex bolts anyway , the older slotted type will burr if you try and force these in . if you can replace the sloted for the hex , I would say this is an improvement . Be warned though even torque wrenches can snap bolts , as you have no feel of the bolt through atorque wrench you are just waiting for the slip for the correct setting , when you tighten direct like I do you allways have a feel what the bolt is doing .
I am at Butlins in Minehead this week and next , when we took apart the american brunswicks that some firm in wales have been maintaining , there was onlt 6 bolts per table holding the cushions on , when there should be 18 . rubber was rock hard , we have the job of rerubbering all the tables , 12 x 9ft Briunswick and 2 old BCE standard cushion square legs .
I will post a photo when finnished .



slate shale and broken slates .
yes I have tightened up bolts in slates where the inner nut has turned when it has snagged on some grit that has fell into the thread and shaled the slate , and it is a full strip down to put it right , I have also snapped bolts when I first started but never snapped or forced one in since . so the trick is to not force a bolt in but to remove it and clean the thread out by wiggling a screw driver in the hole and look at the bolt thread for muck in the thread , never be tempted to grease or put wd 40 in their ,it will bleed into the slate and stain the cloth .
Slate has a grain like wood and if that grain is running at an angle that is easy to part then , the nut will split it with ease , it is just the way the slate has been formed with layers of sediment and pressure , you cannot prevent it , and is just down to bad luck if you get one like that .
if you have a bad nut then replace it when the next strip down is , explain to the customer their is afault within the slate and on the next recover or stretch the slate requires anew stud nut within the slate . also repalce any bad slate bolts that tend to snag .

[hsn]

Nice one Geoff! Great post.

[philip in china]

The reason spanners are the length they are is that an average sized guy will torque that size bolt up about right using that length of spanner. As Geoff says if you have the experience you can do it all by feel.

[maryfield]

When the Star table was introduced I was invited to view it and discuss the subtle improvements they had introduced or re-introduced. The use of 2 inch slate instead of 1 3/4 inch. Improved leg bolt fixing, double bolting the legs etc. (All these can be found on tables from B & W, Thurstons etc so are in no way groundbreaking). Ceramic heaters. Pocket wires bolted to cushion underside. The fitters explained the theory behind using the torque wrench, is to ensure that even tension along the length of the cushion by making sure each bolt is tightened to the same torque. If you have the equipment available why not use it? Years ago they used tacks to fit the cushion cloth prior to the advent of staple guns. Were they wrong or was it an inferior job? No. They used what was available at the time. Some fitters use cordless impact wrenches instead of the bit and brace. Saves time and effort. By the way I don`t use a torque wrench as I`m too tight to buy one!

My friend was a fitter at Sheffield and all major tournaments for many years. His opinion after fitting many STAR tables was that the STAR table would not last the rigours of being moved from tournament to tournament. The quality of materials used was poor and in general he was not impressed. Geoff rightly pointed out the `corrugated` finish to the cushions in an earlier post.

The reason STAR took over from RILEY was that RILEY wouldn`t or couldn`t match the deal offered to WSA for supplying the tables. The WSA in it perilous state needed an injection of funds. STAR with the burgeoning game in ASIA seen the benefit of having the prestige of supplying the tables and offered a better deal. How can a table built in China with questionable quality materials (excluding cloth and rubber)is very low overheads cost approx the same as a RILEY ARISTOCRAT? A set of Italian slates costs approx £ 1000 yet you can get a complete steel block table from China (not STAR) purchased in UK for £ 1500. Need I say more.

[philip in china]

Chinese Tables

I obviously see a lot of Chinese tables here. Some are steel blocked, most are not. They come in various qualities some being crude wooden constructions whilst others have steel muntins and are quite nicely finished. I just don't like the designs of them. They look cheap and flashy for my taste.

[hsn]

Quality post. Did your friend ever talked you about the steel blocks and the slate bolts used in the STAR table? Man they are fast!

When the Star table was introduced I was invited to view it and discuss the subtle improvements they had introduced or re-introduced. The use of 2 inch slate instead of 1 3/4 inch. Improved leg bolt fixing, double bolting the legs etc. (All these can be found on tables from B & W, Thurstons etc so are in no way groundbreaking). Ceramic heaters. Pocket wires bolted to cushion underside. The fitters explained the theory behind using the torque wrench, is to ensure that even tension along the length of the cushion by making sure each bolt is tightened to the same torque. If you have the equipment available why not use it? Years ago they used tacks to fit the cushion cloth prior to the advent of staple guns. Were they wrong or was it an inferior job? No. They used what was available at the time. Some fitters use cordless impact wrenches instead of the bit and brace. Saves time and effort. By the way I don`t use a torque wrench as I`m too tight to buy one!

My friend was a fitter at Sheffield and all major tournaments for many years. His opinion after fitting many STAR tables was that the STAR table would not last the rigours of being moved from tournament to tournament. The quality of materials used was poor and in general he was not impressed. Geoff rightly pointed out the `corrugated` finish to the cushions in an earlier post.

The reason STAR took over from RILEY was that RILEY wouldn`t or couldn`t match the deal offered to WSA for supplying the tables. The WSA in it perilous state needed an injection of funds. STAR with the burgeoning game in ASIA seen the benefit of having the prestige of supplying the tables and offered a better deal. How can a table built in China with questionable quality materials (excluding cloth and rubber)is very low overheads cost approx the same as a RILEY ARISTOCRAT? A set of Italian slates costs approx £ 1000 yet you can get a complete steel block table from China (not STAR) purchased in UK for £ 1500. Need I say more.

[Geoff Large]

it just show's who ever has the most money can get a product at the forefront of the sport.

I recentley bought a German vacume cleaner a brand I had never come across before a MEBO it was expensive at around £260 from john lewis with 5 years full warrenty , her indoors wanted something reliable and one that could pick pet hairs up , but had never seen it comercialy advertised on TV , but it is a very good product , I told my workmate about it , he said you can't beat a Dyson , I said Iv'e been going down the tip and often see plenty of dyson's lined up but never a Mebo , the moral of this story is whats pushed in youre face is not often the Best product for the job .

I think the sport and the Snooker billiard industry deserves a product made in the Uk not in china , and Barry hearn should do things to recitfy this but he won't . and I think it's more a case of lineing the players and mangers and the sports governing bodies pockets at whatever product pays the most and not what is the best product on the market , there is still craftmanship in this country , I cannot think why Thurstons have not been aproached to see if a Table could be produced that was UK made and a better product .

[maryfield]

Here Here Geoff. Totally agree. A while back I did a table for a cabinet maker and he was lamenting on the loss of the skillbase in the UK. He rightly said that we are fast approaching a situation where there won`t be any qualified tradesmen left. China has cornered every market through undercutting. But he feels we will pay the price when all skill are lost and China inflates their prices. Food for thought.