Steel Block Cushions - Pro and Con

[philip in china]

Geoff I do propose to support UK in due course. Chinese is off the agenda.

[s.h442]

When the Star table was introduced I was invited to view it and discuss the subtle improvements they had introduced or re-introduced. The use of 2 inch slate instead of 1 3/4 inch. Improved leg bolt fixing, double bolting the legs etc. (All these can be found on tables from B & W, Thurstons etc so are in no way groundbreaking). Ceramic heaters. Pocket wires bolted to cushion underside. The fitters explained the theory behind using the torque wrench, is to ensure that even tension along the length of the cushion by making sure each bolt is tightened to the same torque. If you have the equipment available why not use it? Years ago they used tacks to fit the cushion cloth prior to the advent of staple guns. Were they wrong or was it an inferior job? No. They used what was available at the time. Some fitters use cordless impact wrenches instead of the bit and brace. Saves time and effort. By the way I don`t use a torque wrench as I`m too tight to buy one!

My friend was a fitter at Sheffield and all major tournaments for many years. His opinion after fitting many STAR tables was that the STAR table would not last the rigours of being moved from tournament to tournament. The quality of materials used was poor and in general he was not impressed. Geoff rightly pointed out the `corrugated` finish to the cushions in an earlier post.

The reason STAR took over from RILEY was that RILEY wouldn`t or couldn`t match the deal offered to WSA for supplying the tables. The WSA in it perilous state needed an injection of funds. STAR with the burgeoning game in ASIA seen the benefit of having the prestige of supplying the tables and offered a better deal. How can a table built in China with questionable quality materials (excluding cloth and rubber)is very low overheads cost approx the same as a RILEY ARISTOCRAT? A set of Italian slates costs approx £ 1000 yet you can get a complete steel block table from China (not STAR) purchased in UK for £ 1500. Need I say more.

I would actually be very suprised if Riley/Bce still actually made tables in the uk as it is more cost effective to have them made in china and still charge a high price for a new aristocrat table.

[maryfield]

They do. Thankfully. You cannot get properly seasoned good quality hardwood in China. In the STAR table they actually use a species of timber which is widely used in the USA for making plywood. The name of the actual species escapes me at the moment, it used to be listed on the manufacturers website, but its not now.

By painting the legs Gold and obliterating any grain by apply tar like stain to the polished parts, it is feasible to use any manner of cheap timber to construct a table. I`m sure Geoff Large will back me up on the poor quality of timbers found in many imported tables. The STAR may use better quality than the other Chinese makers but no way would you be using such timbers for fine furniture.

Another problem with imported tables is the mositure content of the timber. If it is not kiln dried to a level suitable for centrally heated homes, the timber will dry out and want to crack and move. Traits not conducive to a good billiard frame.

I shudder to think the day may come that the skillbase for manufacturing tables in the UK may come to pass. It will be a sad day for anyone with a passion for the game.

A nice saying which I hold great stock in goes as follows:-

It is always within the ingenuity of man to produce something a little bit smaller or a little bit poorer or a little of both and sell it a little cheaper.
People who buy by price alone are the legitimate prey of such a policy.
We ask you to judge by quality, quantity and price, then decide whether the product is value for money.

[s.h442]

I think i remember seeing on their website a mention of luan wood or something like that. Star Probally will get the new contract for the official table supplier as mentioned on this tread barry hearn won't use a uk supplier as star or any other chinese maker will be able to outbid them. But i am still suprised they still make tables in the uk due to the size of the market in china.

As for steel block cushions they seem to be a bit hit and miss. Watching on tv there are times the ball flys off the cushion far harder
than it went on.

[CGQ]

RILEY ARISTOCRAT frames have been made in china for the past 15 years or more,the cushion where finish in england as is the star table. the table is manufactured in china and the cushons finished in england!

[philip in china]

I was surprised to read:
"They do. Thankfully. You cannot get properly seasoned good quality hardwood in China. In the STAR table they actually use a species of timber which is widely used in the USA for making plywood."
Which timber merchants in China have you tried? When I want high quality hardwoods here I have no problem sourcing them.


The problem with Chinese manufacture is that everybody seems to go to China to get the cheapest of the cheap. If you are a UK chain store and got to a Chinese company to buy snooker tables but specify that you won't pay more than $20 per table then don't expect the Chinese to rearrange the Himalayas to find perfect slate. You probably won't get hand carved oak either. If you want quality it is available here but at the same prices you would have to pay elsewhere in the world.

Having said that I just don't like the design of Chinese tables. I just like the old British made tables from just post war or earlier.

[CGQ]

philip are you speaking about seasoned hardwood timber or the playing surface of a snooker table! there is no difference in a slate from a quarry in italy or china to play on if it is hand floated.so if you are looking for a perfect table get a antique burroughs&watts frame,hand floated slate,a set of sheffield steelback cushion,nothern rubber,strachan cloth,belgian balls,star heaters system,and a good fitter! don"t forget the fitter because they also are a important part of the table.then your on a winner!
P.S you wont get a good fitter in china!

[maryfield]

Perhaps you can get good quality timber but they ain`t using it to build snooker tables. The STAR table which is meant to be the best table out there is made from Lauan (Philippine mahogany a misnomer as its not mahogany) which is widely used in the USA for plywood! China is not noted for quality, what they are noted for is ripping off and copying quality items using cheap materials and labour, undercutting UK manufacturers. The end user care only about how much its costing him to buy the item. Forgotten is the cost to the labour force whereby manufacturers are losing the skills to manufacture. There will be a day when everything is imported from China and we will have to pay whatever price is dictated to us as we wont have any alternative.

[s.h442]

RILEY ARISTOCRAT frames have been made in china for the past 15 years or more,the cushion where finish in england as is the star table. the table is manufactured in china and the cushons finished in england!

Thats what i was thinking it is cheaper to pay someone in china than in england plus the fact that more tables will probally be sold in china than the uk.

[maryfield]

I am afraid you are wrong on both counts. The ARISTOCRAT is made in England and the STAR is made in China. I know of a supplier who has two in stock at the moment. He bought a container load direct from China. Finished ready to install. Perhaps the tables used in the tournaments are finished by the fitters in England.

[philip in china]

Maryfield, I am pleased you have now managed to find some good quality timber in China.

You reinforce my point admirably for which thank you. As you say China makes a lot of the cheap stuff which is bought throughout the world. As long as consumers demand and consume the cheap stuff they will continue to make it. It is entirely a demand led equation. If people were to stop buying the goods China would fairly soon stop manufacturing them and move up market.

WIth no disrespect meant to Feoff and others in the trade actually making a good quality snooker table isn't rocket science. They could be produced by many companies both here and in the west. The question that has to be asked is if I were to start making top quality tables out of, say, oak with Northern rubber rubbers as standard and strachan cloth etc. etc.- how many would I sell in a year? Would it be worth my while setting up my machines etc? The answer is I would probably make more money from knocking out G Plan dining suites. This is the raeson why so many snooker table manufacturers have closed over the decades. Expensive machines and skilled men need to be kept busy.

[philip in china]

Maryfield, I am pleased you have now managed to find some good quality timber in China.

You reinforce my point admirably for which thank you. As you say China makes a lot of the cheap stuff which is bought throughout the world. As long as consumers demand and consume the cheap stuff they will continue to make it. It is entirely a demand led equation. If people were to stop buying the goods China would fairly soon stop manufacturing them and move up market.

WIth no disrespect meant to Feoff and others in the trade actually making a good quality snooker table isn't rocket science. They could be produced by many companies both here and in the west. The question that has to be asked is if I were to start making top quality tables out of, say, oak with Northern rubber rubbers as standard and strachan cloth etc. etc.- how many would I sell in a year? Would it be worth my while setting up my machines etc? The answer is I would probably make more money from knocking out G Plan dining suites. This is the raeson why so many snooker table manufacturers have closed over the decades. Expensive machines and skilled men need to be kept busy.

[CGQ]

im afraid you are wrong the star table in tournaments the frame is made in china the cushions are rerubbered and cut in england to match spec as was the aristocrat for the past 15 years. the same fitters build them for all over the world for tournaments.
yes you can buy them direct from the factory they tell you they are the same but there not. BCE also did the same with the ARISTOCRAT IF YOUR IN THE TRADE you will already know that there is a lot of difference between a tournament table on tv and a tournament table that is sold to the public.

[maryfield]

Philip I wasn`t just referring to snooker table manufacture. I was referring to aspects of manufacturing. Yes factories will open and close due to supply and demand, no more apparent than the boom of the 80`s when they couldn`t manufacture enough tables in the UK to meet demand. As Geoff has alluded to quality suffered through bad design and poor timber. But you need skilled labour to meet the demand when it arises. Who is going to pass this on?

I have a friend who owned the largest snooker club in Scotland if not the UK back in the 80`s. (59 tables) Demand for tables was so great that he travelled the length and breadth of the country buying sets of second hand slates from people who had them lying in their gardens, used as driveway paths etc. When snooker died a death in the sixties and early seventies you couldn`t give tables away. A situation we are facing again, thanks in part to the smoking ban. However he took these slates, had a joiner knock up a frame using 4 x 4 timber boxed in with laminate plywood and married them with a set of cushions. Not very pretty but did the job and they filled the need when people would be happy to play on the floor!

China doesn`t confine itself to copying snooker tables. About every conceivable consumer product is now manufactured over there, legally and illegally. They are even ripping off Rolls Royce cars!

[maryfield]

CGQ you are right about the STAR. They are made in China and World Snooker Services in Bristol finish the cushions in the Uk for the tournament tables. The two guys are Pete Godwin and Eugene James. As far as the Aristocrat it is made in the UK and finished at BCE/Riley in Bristol by Leighton Bailey. There was a short period when tables were built in China but not now. I`ve been to the factory as recently as 2 years ago.