Cox & Yeman pocket plates and nets

[mikebr]

Hi, I need a set of pocket plates with nets for a Cox & Yeman snooker table (just one for the middle pocket but possible a set), I have looked at Peradon's table parts and the options they have do not match those of the actual table.

Does anyone happen to know if it is possible to get these replacements from anywhere in the UK? The nets strings are quite thick, the net area is shaped like a bag without the strings hanging down in the middle, looks very neat and has a luxury feel.

Thanks for any info on this in advance.

[ryanah147]

I`d say you are really asking for a long shot looking for C&Y Pocket plates. I take it that the middle plate you are looking for has a very deep bow ie: a full half circle, and the circumference of same would be a little bit longer in length than that of the ordinary middle plates ?.
The net pockets you are looking for would even be a more difficult task, unless that is that someone in the trade would have fitted a new set of modern bagnets and held on to the remaining `good ones`that came off the table. I have come across and held on to quite a few of those in my time, but when they are hanging around in some corner of the workshop for a few years and it comes to the point where one has to do a major clean up, the `rubbish`is put in the skip with the rest of the `junk`.
The only thing I can help you with in Cox & Yemen is a set of brass rosettes which are screwed into the cushion bolts when the bolts are finally tightened up. If you look at your cushion bolts and if there is a threaded hole in the middle of the slot, that table when manufactured had these fitted.
Maybe Geoff or one of the other fitters on here may be able to help.

[mikebr]

I have added a couple of images of the remaining middle pocket plate. leather and net with one for the corners also. Not sure on the bolts although I never really noticed anything different than normal bolt heads, I will be at the hose again next week so I will take a closer look at the bolts. The owner did mention that he had wooden buttons for the covers.
Thanks for the info

[Geoff Large]

I take it that the cox and yeman pocket plates are the type with a long square tapering insert lug , a rare item to locate I,m afraid so I have an idea if you can take the opposite middle and take it to a foundry that casts brass you could have one or a complete set made if you have a corner plate too .
there are many founderies that cast brass items for decorative parts such as horse brasses or even steam engine parts , I would search youre local area for a foundry or search for steam engine parts , or even contact a steam engine forum and find where a foundry could cast the parts you require . it will not be low cost though as a sand mould will have to be formed first for each part cast , the pockets are not available anymore and i take it you want the decorative type.
those rosettes are hard to find too , I service a cox and yeman in a local service mens club and they have some of the rosettes missing , but they have replaced them with cartridge shell ends wich is very good to the eye , they claim the table was in the boar war and shipped back from South africa to be placed in their riflemans club , there is all sorts of defunct firearms and hand grenades in display cases plus zulu spears and sheilds etc on the walls .

just noticed you are in spain so search for a spanish foundry that can do the casting , although you would have better luck in the uk , if the part is just broken have it brazed .

[Geoff Large]

those are the older type of Pocket plate known as Recessed top plates , the cox and yeman type that are special that i was thinking of are not like these , you can get these plates easy BUT there are differant sizes , you would have to measure them for lenth and the width of the centre part that retains the net , you will also have to get the centre to centre of each bolt hole too .

the bags are DIY crochet type , you would have to find someone who can crochet these for you . I do not rate how they have sewn the leathers on this has been done on a sewing machine unlike the holed leathers that are sewn on with cord or string .

Those rosettes that cover the bolts are from a later cox and yeman as these top plates date the table before 1890s

the cox and yeman plates that are hard to get are called Horse shoe plates because they have a very deep back curve on the corner pockets that resembles a horse shoe , these are prone to become loose as people rest on them and they wear the socket out . the centre pockets too are deeply rounded back but not as much as the corner plate .

[mikebr]

Hello Geoff,
You are right in that the table dates before 1890's, not sure exact dateJust as a matter of interest the table has some 3/4" blocks on the inside of the side frame covering the area from the leg over where the bolt nuts would be, I don't know if this is original to be honest but it is something I haven't seen before.

So are you saying the nets would not be original?

The table belongs to an Arab family who brought it over here when they moved here, it has been through the wars by the looks of it, it has had a soaking at some time as the timbers are black around where the bolts are in the timber frame 'behind the 3/4" blocks'. I actually thought that the pockets might be something that was possibly made up in the country the table came from, it makes sense as that would be something they would do in an Arab or Asian country as they can put their hands to fairly much everything like that. I actually really like the crochet bags, not sure how they hang on the table but the stings used make then feel soft, quite heavy and soft so hang well in the hand, they are not stiff cord.
Yes the sewing on the leather is a bit ugly! shame really because as I mentioned the actual bag hangs well so if the stitching where neat and possibly in something that was not white they could look quite nice.

You mention that the plates are reasonably easy to get, I can get the measurements sometime in the next week so is this something you would need to get or can you pass me on a contact for them?

Do you know what type of nets would this table have had originally as a matter of interest, a No.1 type of net or something else?

Thanks for all the info and taking the time to answer.

Mike

[CGQ]

i have a box of old pocket brasses ill let you know tomorrow

[Geoff Large]

the pocket nets that where original to the table would look like this set on this highly carved orme and son


I have some old pocket plates knocking around my garage and I do save the set if a table is scrapped so yes i may have a set , but they would have to be almost exact to fit youre recessed wood and bolt hole .

[CGQ]

I think these pocket plates are the same, if geoff has'nt got them, if you measure yours from the centre of each hole on the middle pocket!pocket plates 003.jpg

[mikebr]

Geoff, From the nets in the photo I think No 1 nets would be good with darkened leathers, it doesn't even need to be a set as I just need a middle pocket plate... anyway, I need to get to the villa again to get the measurements but as soon as I have them I will come back.

Image attached of the end cushion plaque, you can see someone has already made a poor attempt at a restoration sometime before the table got here, you don't want to see what they have done with the lining blocks when whoever last recovered the cushions. :-)

Thanks

IMG_0830.jpg

[mikebr]

Thanks CGQ, these actually look the same from what I can see, I will need to get some measurements...

[Geoff Large]

Mike have you noticed on youre photo of the pocket plates that there is notches cutt into the brass on the corner pocket plate this is it's number so the plate in the photo upside down is no 4 plate , the recess hole where the plate fits will also be marked with 4 lines , they are normaly numbered from left pocket of baulk as no 1 , then no 2 corner will be clock wise so standing at baulk no 2 will be bottom left no3 bottom right and no for to youre right of baulk , the centre pockets will be numbered no 1 and 2 notches , these will be no1 to left of baulk no 2 to right of baulk , also I have noticed impact bending of youre centre plates , it is important that not only the hole aligns up for the under bolt , but also the lenth of finger brass and the recessed brass fits into the woodwork so that the plate is flush , second hand plates will require some work to fit youre table , as you will prob be fitting ex thurston or orme plates to youre cox and yeman , I mentioned these two firms as an example .

[mikebr]

Great information on the notches Geoff, thanks for that.

To be honest the cushion timber is not in a great state at the ends of the cushions, this will need to be repaired 'on some in a major way' so there will be a certain amount of plate fitting work to be done anyway.

I noticed the 'bow' in the middle plate from ball impact, I was actually thinking to take it round to an English run metal shop in the industrial estate across the road from me to see if they could get it out by applying some heat, probably a better option that applying some pressure between wooden blocks in a vice. Of course this all depends on what path I end up being put on as far as being able to replace the center plate.

I should be picking the table up some time next week so I will have a lot more information at my hands then.

[CGQ]

mikebr the notches in the pocket brasses where there to guide you where which pocket brass went where.everthing was done by hand,the length of the finger brass,the depth of the recessed brass,the cut out of the timber etc you are going to have to do work to the timber anyway whatever pocket brass you get,your not going to get the same one again.so if the length of your finger brass and recess brass is close and the under bolt aligns you should be ok

[Geoff Large]

mike you can also stain youre bag nets with coffee or wood stain to make them look old and in keeping with the table , a few firms do this . they yellow them or even make them tobacco brown . do this before fitting them .