Orme & Sons table HELP

[MichaelBillson]

hello, Im in possession of a 10 foot orme & sons table, its been in the family for around 30 years now.
the table is actually believe to be over 120 years old to this day but we are having trouble finding out when the table was made and just who for.
We have reference numbers on the table but after looking all over the internet we cannot find anything in relation to orme & sons that we can refer our reference numbers to.
The table was believe to belong to royalty and 'Constantine' is mentioned on the table.
We are considering selling the table so this is why we want to know more about the table before it leaves the family

i was hoping someone could help me as i have pretty much come to a dead end .

thanks
Michael

[Geoff Large]

100-uper is the man to ask about the badge with constantine written on it although from vague history was that a Roman governer of briton or something ?
many billiard firms used to use obscure names in describing or advertiseing their tables , names like Standfast and Arrowflght or Permac even Excelcior was used often , constantine sounds Greek to me , maybe they where trying to sound more regal by putting constantine on the name plate ?

A picture tells a thousand stories so they say , from a photo of the table it may be possible to date from leg design and also pocket plate type used , also the thickness of slate and how many sections , please post a photo of the table , a close up of a corner pocket plate from above and look under the table to see how many slates there are on the table and how thick the slate is , do not add the wood surround lining that the bed cloth is tacked to just feel down the slate fall at the pocket to see where the slate stops and the wood begins under the cloth .


Orme was first established around 1845 , you may be linking the table to Royal connections through the ivory name plate which may carry the prince of wales feathers ? this is on most orme tables built after the royal warrent was awarded , and people get a bit excited that their table may have been owned by Royals when in fact it is a royal warrent and the firm Orme & sons showing off to the world that they have supplied at sometime a table to HRH the prince of wales or (later king Edweard V11) maybe to a club he donated the table to ? this would be around victorias time but towards the back end , 100-uper may give more info on this subject to when orme first started useing the Royal warrent .
as far as I know the main billiard table suppliers to the Royals where Thurston and later on George wright and the odd Burroughs and watts , but at sometime in one of the prince of wales other royal houses a orme must have been on order for the house or a club or even military building frequented by the Prince of wales to be awarded a Royal warrent , BUT I would guess they where all full sized , unless a room was not large enough I cannot see the Royals choosing a lesser size than full size for a large Royal household .
I am guessing as orme was manchester based maybe a royal household in Scotland ? unless they took the order from their Soho Square office and showroom .

the royal warrent was awarded in 1880 so from that year the Prince of wales feathers where incorperated into the name plate on each table manufactured . in 1901 Victoria died and they upgraded the warrent to King edward V11 .



NO orme order books are now kept to give an exact date , some of these billiard firms where blitzed during the war and orme may have had all books destroyed when they where taken over by Buroughs and watts or at alater date by Riley who took over B&watts , I have heard that was the case with Orme ? , thurstons and burroughs and watts where two companies who lost entire history of sales etc during world war 2 .

so youre best bet is 100-uper and also post a Photo of the table .

[MichaelBillson]

Hello Geoff,
thanks for all this.

I do have pictures of the table but im having trouble being able to post them. Once i figure it out i will post the pictures on this

thanks

[Geoff Large]

I think you have to complete at least 5 posts before it will let you post any photo's you have only posted twice , you can email them to me at c.large@btinternet.com , I can then post them useing photobucket download .

Geoff

[hotshot27]

i had an old ten foot table and didnt look into the history of it and sold it for 300 quid,then the guy that bought it got£3.500 for it so its good ur trying to get the correct info on it.

[Geoff Large]

Youre orme is dated 1910 to 1936 by the king Georg V referance on the end plate .

the label which mentions E G Constantine also gives the town name of Consden Newquay , maybe you should be searching that towns archive ,

although guessing his first name was edward I have come up with one posibilty , the late founder of the Guardian Newspaper edward constatine died in 1950 was from st blazey in Cornwall so near to Newquay ? although he lived in australia he could have had a house in is home county of cornwall to revisit now and again .?
anway here is the news of Constantine's Death in 1950
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/67938722

the 10ft table I think is from the early 30s from the design .



Value wise on todays market £1000 . Renovated £3500 .

[100-uper]

The Empress Eugenie died in 1920 so I shouldn't think the plate – and presumably the table – is much later than this. Although they are still referencing King Edward VII on the plate so you never know. Not sure how they acquired this appointment in the first place, it has always struck me as unusual. She was the consort of Napoleon III of France, and lived in exile in England after he was deposed in 1870. So she must have been a fair old age when they supplied a billiard table to her (presumably free) in return for the "warrant."

Can't help with the identity of the owner. The name "E G Constantine" means nothing to me.

[Geoff Large]

I think Orme are just show boating that they have had royal warrents on three royals , but with this end cushion Badge the centre King referance is the period that the table was Manufactured which is king george V

so the table is around 80 to 100 years old .
I do not think it is connected to any royal ownership though as the end plate would have stated this , If a firm has secured a table sale to a royal household they would have put a end plate on that showed this , like Thurston did with the buckingham palace table supplied to Queen victoria

[PatchRussell]

Hi, I may have the opportunity to acquire an orme and sons table. the table is roughly 10' x 4'6" and has the name plate with the prince of wales feathers on it, as shown above. The table has been disassembled and on every piece I think, "orme & sons manchester" is stamped into it and also the numbers 2174. It also says S20 after manchester. Going off what I've read above I am presuming that the table pre-dates 1901. Am I right in thinking this? The table is in need of renovation tho. The slate is about an inch thick roughly and needs some damage attention to one of the edges. unfortunately this is my first post so I can't add any photo's.
Could anyone give me a very rough idea as to what this table would be worth before renovation. also is the slate the most important part of an antique table? Basically what I'm asking is, would the table be worth much without the slate. It's so damn heavy!!!

Reading through what I have so far, Geoff Large and 100-uper seem to be the resident experts so I would very much appreciate it if you could both give me your opinions and knowledge about this table. I could sort some pics and send to an email address if that helps.

thanks for your help
Patch

[Geoff Large]

Hi Patch , send photo's to Geoffs email. below.

photo of legs , cushions pocket plates and slate thickness , how many slates? , is it a 9ft by 4ft 6 or a 10ft by 5ft also any scoreboard if it has an old one with it . photo of the cushion end plate will help date it.

c.large@btinternet.com

[PatchRussell]

Hi Geoff, sorry about the delay, work gets in the way of everything doesn't it :-(

OK, Unfortunately the Pocket plates have gone. I suspect they where made of brass and some idiot's had them away for scrap.
The table is 9' x 4' 6" and the slate is in 3 pieces. The slate is an inch and a quarter thick. also there is no scoreboard. That's well gone too. I've sent you some pics and hope you can get a better idea from those.
Let me know if you need anymore info and I'll see if i can get it.

Thanx very much

Patch

[PatchRussell]

Hi Geoff, sorry about the delay, work gets in the way of everything doesn't it :-(

OK, Unfortunately the Pocket plates have gone. I suspect they where made of brass and some idiot's had them away for scrap.
The table is 9' x 4' 6" and the slate is in 3 pieces. The slate is an inch and a quarter thick. also there is no scoreboard. That's well gone too. I've sent you some pics and hope you can get a better idea from those.
Let me know if you need anymore info and I'll see if i can get it.

Thanx very much

Patch

[Geoff Large]

The leg design is commonly known as the ZULU model , the cushions having top plates and date the table to pre 1900s , and I would guess around 1890 to 1895 to be roughly the date of production , the pocket plates can be bought new , although they may be a little larger than the originals they could be made to fit . I do have some second hand top plates ones knocking about in my workshop , if you are interested , email me at c.large@btinternet.com
they prob named the table leg design after the fighting in south africa of the British and the Zulu,s this was around 1878
just to show what craftmanship came out of orme have a look at my web site www.gclbilliards.com the table in the opening page background is an orme & sons with ebony inlays and trim and it is in Burr honey oak .