Is Snooker Dying as a sport ? and speed fitters is the job upto it ?

[bricktip]

yeah, audience levels at events has never been a good indication of how popular snooker is in a particular region.

[cueman]

Its funny because only yesterday I read that tickets for this years world championship sold at their quickest rate ever on release day, 15,000 sold within only a few hours of going on sale. So you'd have to say that the game is still popular with its hardcore followers but outside of that it does seem to be losing interest amongst players and casual fans alike.

I don't think the game is in bad shape or anything like that, there are still plenty of tournaments on for amateurs and pros, I just think that casual players have lost interest which is showing in why so many clubs are empty or struggling, however I also blame Rileys for this as they have milked these clubs dry for their own profits and once the club struggles they shut it down. Hopefully once these clubs are owned under private ownership they might make it more affordable and get the tables in good condition, then maybe people will get interested again. Rileys have done a lot of damage to the game in this country, I don't know anyone who has a good word to say about them.

[Particle Physics]

Its funny because only yesterday I read that tickets for this years world championship sold at their quickest rate ever on release day, 15,000 sold within only a few hours of going on sale. So you'd have to say that the game is still popular with its hardcore followers but outside of that it does seem to be losing interest amongst players and casual fans alike.

I don't think the game is in bad shape or anything like that, there are still plenty of tournaments on for amateurs and pros, I just think that casual players have lost interest which is showing in why so many clubs are empty or struggling, however I also blame Rileys for this as they have milked these clubs dry for their own profits and once the club struggles they shut it down. Hopefully once these clubs are owned under private ownership they might make it more affordable and get the tables in good condition, then maybe people will get interested again. Rileys have done a lot of damage to the game in this country, I don't know anyone who has a good word to say about them.

No-one takes over a Rileys and runs it as a snooker club, there ain't any money in it as an owner said on here a while back. Pool, selling beers (which snooker players don't drink a lot of!), gambling machines, darts and sports on big screens makes money. That's what Rileys are interested in really. Which is a shame, because they have a proud history they're destroying. But that's business, the bottom line is always the deciding factor.

[philip in china]

I was chatting recently and wondered if current levels of play etc. are "normal" and the huge popularity in the 80s was just a blip.

Business is a consideration and to devote 35 square metres of space to a table just doesn't make much commercial sense. I suppose nobody knows why things are quietening down in the game. Generally these things are as a result of a combination of factors any one of which could be shrugged off but the aggregate effect of which is very damaging.

[bricktip]

Particle Physics: What's the proud history of Riley's you talk about?

[bricktip]

Never mind, i just read this and never knew that the clubs were in any way related to the tables. http://www.rileys.co.uk/aboutUs.aspx

[Terry Davidson]

The name of the game is getting the numbers in to justify the space/rent. When I was living in Leicester I was the house player for the Top Spot in Glenfield and then Winston's in South Leicester.

If anyone wanted to play snooker in the evenings between 7-11pm they had to book a table well in advance and a lot of foursomes or twosomes had a weekly booking where they would play socially for 2 hours and have a few drinks (and a smoke in those days). It certainly isn't that way now for most snooker clubs.

I think club owner/managers have to come up with something that will make the average players WANT to come down to the snooker club for an enjoyable evening, especially now that snooker is getting more TV time in both the UK and elsewhere (not in Canada or the USA though).

In the 80's we also used to have a large pro-am virtually EVERY weekend somewhere in England or Wales with other tournaments going on at the same time in Scotland and likely Northern Ireland too. Living in Leicester I could get to most of these tournaments in a 1-3hr drive and if I managed to get through to the 1/4's then get a bed and breakfast for the Sunday.

On TSF here, there must be someone who can come up with one or three ideas which will convince the average player to come to a snooker club for 2-4hrs of entertainment. Decent tables are certainly a part of that, good booze prices and also decent food, especially on the weekends.

In saying that, even the SWSA is having a difficult time keeping their tables booked and the revenue flowing. I believe part of the reason is the Star tables are very tight and difficult and you need to be a good player to get some breaks on them but also there are no food facilities (I haven't tried the Star Academy in Sheffield as yet, but I understand they have decent food and are seeing some success).

So how do we get the majority of players, most of whom would be in the under-40 break skill level to start coming out to the clubs more often? I see TV is normally crap in the evening, so what's keeping these players away? Or are a lot of them playing pool as they can pot more balls easier? This is what is happening in Canada as our snooker tables slowly disappear into storage or even junk yards or landfills.

My first recommendation would be to make the majority of tables in the clubs with easy pockets and keep a couple at template for the higher skilled players. Keep the tables clean and in decent shape. Have decent food and snacks. Have at least competitive booze prices. Have decent coffee and tea. (As a coffeeholic, I have a difficult time finding a decent cup of coffee in ANY British snooker club). Try and hire knowledgeable staff (not like the Riley clubs are doing).

To reduce table re-covering costs perhaps have the staff break down the tables ready for the fitter so you can save an hour or more of the fitter's costs there. Don't assume however that you can replace a good fitter. Keep the clubs clean, especially the toilets and also provide a designated smoking area with windbreaks and maybe some kind of roof for us nicotine-addicted players. Have plenty of free parking close by. Offer secure cue and ball storage for your members. Provide decent chalk with your sets of balls (although a lot might go missing).

Anyone else have any more ideas?

Terry

[Particle Physics]

Particle Physics: What's the proud history of Riley's you talk about?

Good point. I guess there is none now, apart from the odd good cue and table under the Riley's name in the past. They do sponsor a lot of players, and offer free table time for good amateurs that I know, but their tables have gone to the dogs, and that is criminal given their history. Maybe it would be no bad thing if they disappeared?

[ace man]

In my country (Croatia) pool room owners are scared to put more than one snooker table because they fear it won't bring any profit due to difficulty of the game. Well now it seems they might as well have tried with snooker because pool is going down definitely.
Two major pool clubs in capital city were closed because of financial reasons. Only 1 (one!) pool room remains where it would still be possible to stage tournaments.

Logic says that 9ft US pool tables with bigger pockets should be doing well because unlike at snooker, casual non regular players could at least pot a ball or two. But still, their game of 8ball on such a table still lasts half an hour at least. Casuals feel that they are not getting their money's worth, because they might only get through two racks in under one hour. They actually prefer much easier 7ft coin operated tables.
Plenty of people here watch snooker on Eurosport and like it a lot, but when they actually decide to try the game they give up easily. Players realize that they will not finish one single frame under an hour. Not a chance. Not only that their ego is hurt, but their wallet gets emptier too.
And there lies the problem I think. Hourly rate is simply too high for casual players or any other players for that matter. One has to pay about 5 pounds for one hour of pool or snooker. If you factor in the standard, this is roughly equivalent to somebody from UK or other more developed countries paying about 20 quid or more for just 1 hour. At that price one will think twice before ordering a new round of drinks which are also not cheap.
The end result is empty rooms. It wasn't always like that, of course there were times when those pool rooms did ok, at least on weekends. But those times are gone. People don't have any luxury money to spend any more. Room owners were resting on their laurels. They never had any business plan whatsoever, couldn't adapt to new market conditions and never invested into anything.

[vid]

All the posters here are saying pretty much the same thing - snooker is just not 'sexy' at the moment so it doesnt pull the punters in. It needs rebranding somehow like t20 cricket so that the core sport can survive. It all boils down to space in this country, space costs money, if you cant fully utilise the space then it wont be profitable - for every full size snooker table you can fit in 2 pool tables that turn over games at twice the speed at least - thats business unfortunately.

At the top there is lots of interest as with all televised sports and celebrity players however it fails to pull in the players at club level. Ithink its a bit of what everyone has said. Lack of spare cash, a tendancy to watch rather than participate, running costs to high, lack of time, kids easily satisfied with computers and games stations and not easily satisfied with sports requiring time skill and practise rather than instant gratification.

Wish it was easily answered and I hope that things will change. Without a doubt life is not going to be easy for a good few years now so perhaps attitudes will have to change as we all have to commit more and more to make it all work!!

[vmax4steve]

The escalation of business rates in town centres must have also had an effect.

And the adoption of american youth culture in the Uk could also be a valid reason why there are not so many lads taking up the game. They are listening to Hip Hop and Rap, getting fat on junk food and even playing with guns in gangs. Can't remember any original british youth culture emerging since the New Romantics in the 1980's.

[Csmith]

The name of the game is getting the numbers in to justify the space/rent. When I was living in Leicester I was the house player for the Top Spot in Glenfield and then Winston's in South Leicester.

If anyone wanted to play snooker in the evenings between 7-11pm they had to book a table well in advance and a lot of foursomes or twosomes had a weekly booking where they would play socially for 2 hours and have a few drinks (and a smoke in those days). It certainly isn't that way now for most snooker clubs.

I think club owner/managers have to come up with something that will make the average players WANT to come down to the snooker club for an enjoyable evening, especially now that snooker is getting more TV time in both the UK and elsewhere (not in Canada or the USA though).

In the 80's we also used to have a large pro-am virtually EVERY weekend somewhere in England or Wales with other tournaments going on at the same time in Scotland and likely Northern Ireland too. Living in Leicester I could get to most of these tournaments in a 1-3hr drive and if I managed to get through to the 1/4's then get a bed and breakfast for the Sunday.

On TSF here, there must be someone who can come up with one or three ideas which will convince the average player to come to a snooker club for 2-4hrs of entertainment. Decent tables are certainly a part of that, good booze prices and also decent food, especially on the weekends.

In saying that, even the SWSA is having a difficult time keeping their tables booked and the revenue flowing. I believe part of the reason is the Star tables are very tight and difficult and you need to be a good player to get some breaks on them but also there are no food facilities (I haven't tried the Star Academy in Sheffield as yet, but I understand they have decent food and are seeing some success).

So how do we get the majority of players, most of whom would be in the under-40 break skill level to start coming out to the clubs more often? I see TV is normally crap in the evening, so what's keeping these players away? Or are a lot of them playing pool as they can pot more balls easier? This is what is happening in Canada as our snooker tables slowly disappear into storage or even junk yards or landfills.

My first recommendation would be to make the majority of tables in the clubs with easy pockets and keep a couple at template for the higher skilled players. Keep the tables clean and in decent shape. Have decent food and snacks. Have at least competitive booze prices. Have decent coffee and tea. (As a coffeeholic, I have a difficult time finding a decent cup of coffee in ANY British snooker club). Try and hire knowledgeable staff (not like the Riley clubs are doing).

To reduce table re-covering costs perhaps have the staff break down the tables ready for the fitter so you can save an hour or more of the fitter's costs there. Don't assume however that you can replace a good fitter. Keep the clubs clean, especially the toilets and also provide a designated smoking area with windbreaks and maybe some kind of roof for us nicotine-addicted players. Have plenty of free parking close by. Offer secure cue and ball storage for your members. Provide decent chalk with your sets of balls (although a lot might go missing).

Anyone else have any more ideas?

Terry

As far as Canada is concerned, I've often wondered about ways to get snooker back on television. Because that's really what we need in order to get people trying the game. Every new player that I have met was introduced to snooker through the plethora of youtube video's now currently available. But most of those people actively sought them out. Players need to be inspired enough to push past the difficulty factor I think, otherwise they'll just play pool where they can already run a few balls.

Broadcasting a major tournament wouldn't work as the current audience in north america may be too small to support it, and the matches far too long to accommodate the attention span of the general public. Furthermore, a condensed one hour highlight package would have to be more creative than simply cutting a 4 hr match down to 45 min as ESPN would do. That said I find the BBC's daily highlights of the World Championships very entertaining. They do a great job setting up the stories of the tournament.

An idea I've been kicking around for a while, is to organize the Canadian pot black tournament. An event that features entirely Canadian players marketed towards a Canadian audience. Could something like that be pitched to TSN or Rogers Sportsnet or any other providers? I don't have much experience in this area so I don't know how it works. However, the one frame format is quick enough to hold an audiences attention and in an hour program you can often get two or more matches in which is excellent for north american attention spans.

But as near as I can tell, the game needs more exposure in Canada. Without players on television putting on awe inspiring performances, there isn't much influence people to play the game. Especially when the majority of the public already plays pool. And those that know about the game often tell me they aren't good enough to play snooker, which is a misconception that needs to be rectified.

Neither game is getting much exposure at the moment, but with things as they are people are going to gravitate towards pool more often than snooker as anyone can pot balls on a pool table.

[philip in china]

Pool/Snooker

Interestingly as some of you might know I have a 10' table in China. Now I know pool on a 10' snooker table isn't like pool on the small tables with the KFC Bargain Bucket pockets but it is interesting that although I have pool balls for the table almost nobody ever plays pool. I know for a fact the pool balls haven't been out of their bag this year. At first a few people, especially the expat Americans played a bit of pool but nowadays they all play snooker because it is so much more skilfull. They also clean up every time they are on a pool table elsewhere.

[pottingpinks]

Definitely looking for answers for this myself. Took over as the match secretary last year of a local rural league, and tried to jazz things up with a few ideas, we played a few scotch doubles, quickfire six reds events, held a shootout night / speed snooker competition and end of season play offs which I think most folk thought all went very well. But obviously you need a bit extra in entry fees for the prize fund, however I think we still offered a very good deal overall in comparison with what we paid for just the one league and cup previously.

But still it seems we are going to lose more teams than actually join our league this year and there seem to be no youngsters coming through whatsoever with many of the players stalwarts of many years aged in the 50+ bracket.
When these players stop who is going to take their places?

I think we do need to run our shootout night as an open comp rather than restricted to league members as it is now but the old uns on the committee seem to prefer it as a closed shop. I think if we let some of the young uns sample some of these things they might want to experience a bit more of it.

The club we held the event at actually does have quite a high percentage of youngsters comparatively to the other clubs in the area, but they only seem to play snooker in practice and play in pool teams, maybe its a case of not having the dedication to put in the hours to achieve a standard that is more readily available at pool with far less effort.
I played pool for many years myself but found it very boring towards the end, it may have been our own league rules or the way our team played but it all got very turgid and tactical, and find snooker a far more enjoyable game.

I honestly think we succeeded in livening up the snooker whilst maintaining the normal league programme, more than one person said they thought it was a breath of fresh air but its still difficult to get the youngsters on board, I think they just think pool is more their environment with it being held more often in pubs rather than some of the old working mens type of establishments (though admittedly many of those are falling by the wayside).
Our local club is of the latter variety, and I've hardly seen more than the odd person in all summer.

Amazingly however we still tend to get at least two teams from our place in the league, and this is through rigidly having a team selection meeting every year so things can get organised. This is a trick many clubs miss out on, if no one ever really gets together seriously to talk about it, things are left in limbo and life carries on with no snooker teams on the horizon more often than not!!

Though having said that our own league's meetings are very sparsely attended, the last one we had one team were represented other than those on the committee so its pretty much a waste of time holding more than the absolutely essential ones each year. I remember a day when every captain of every team used to attend but over the years a more relaxed approach to penalties and fines (I suppose we need all the players we can get rather than banning anyone!) has meant no one turns up!

[pottingpinks]

Re the condition of the tables, we have always ironed ours very regularly so it is not far short of the speed of a pro match table but this means when playing away from home the other tables (which generally aren't ironed so often) are all way slower so it can make things rather difficult for either party!