Oval Ended Bagatelle Table

[Hungarian]

Hello Ladies and Gents,

I know there is a bunch of knowledge in the Snooker forum here and many folks who may know about my Bagatelle table. I would be very greatful if you could have a look at the photos attached and possibly offer some detailed info on the very unique Bagatelle table.


Recently I picked this beast of a table up. It's a Bagatelle table that measures approx (12) feet long and (4) feet wide with (6) pockets and (9) cups. I have not been able to find any information regarding this table. I am hoping to learn more about the manufacturer. I have seen some other Bagatelle tables but never (12) feet long with (6) pockets. I have been advised that this table may have been made by burroughes and watts based on the style of the legs but I don't know this to be true.

The questions I have but any info is appreciated:

1.) Have you ever seen such a Bagatelle table before this long and with (6) pockets?
2.) Who is Spencers Billiard Works in Bristol and why is their nameplate on this table?
3.) How would I obtain some catalog / print material on the Bagatelle?
4.) Where can I obtqain new cushions and supplies for these tables?
5.) Any rules of play based on this table with (6) pockets?
6.) Any idea how old this table is and what kind of value it has?


Any help or guidance would be highly appreciated.


Thank you in advance.

Cheers,
Mark in Houston

[Hungarian]

I can't attach photos so I am providing a link to another thread on another forum.

Any input on my table is appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark in Houston, TX

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=286541

[100-uper]

Spencer's were manufacturers of billiard and bagatelle tables. What exactly does it say on the plate? The style is late 19th century, which is a bit early for one of theirs, but styles changed slowly in the provinces.

[Hungarian]

Thank you 100-uper. Sorry but I can't post photos yet. I guess since I'm new to this forum.

Here's a few other links to an earlier threads with a photos of the nameplate.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showth...ight=bagatelle

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showth...ight=bagatelle

I've been told that Spencers may have only changed the cushions and then installed their nameplate. Don't know this to be true.

Thanks again...

Spencer's were manufacturers of billiard and bagatelle tables. What exactly does it say on the plate? The style is late 19th century, which is a bit early for one of theirs, but styles changed slowly in the provinces.

[Hungarian]

Here's another thread with photos of a few bar billiards tables as well....

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showth...highlight=oval

[100-uper]

Well the Spencer's plate was made no earlier than 1940, so it must have been put on during a later renovation, probably during the war or just after.

This table itself is definitely Victorian in origin, but I can't say that the design of the leg exactly matches anything I recognise from a major manufacturer. There are similarities with designs I know were produced by both Burroughes & Watts and Riley's, but most manufacturers seemed to copy each others styles, so this is not reliable. One thing's for sure, this is a quality item - a top of the range item - and perhaps Geoff or others can identify the maker from the legs or other features.

[Hungarian]

Thank you so much 100-uper!!

You have me very excited about this table. I hope Mr. Geoff or others have some additional info. I knew when I saw this table that it was special and I had to have it. I payed a fair cost to get it but I'm very glad I did. I've had several Americans look at it and discount it as a novelty not really worth having. But I just knew it was something special. I can tell you for sure that it is rare, that's a fact. You are the first person to have any knowledge about it.

Cheers,
Mark in Houston, TX

[Geoff Large]

Well you can rule burroughs and watts out , it would have had a church window type knee panel and prob fluted legs , the table having top plate side pockets would date it pre 1900 , having 4 of these side pockets is a rare version , I have only worked on tables with two side pockets , looking at the sturdy frame it could well be a George wright , cox and yeman ? , even Thurston . or any of the smaller london firms , it would have had gold leaf transfer on it somewhere but it prob has been repolished sometime back , and removed.

I once picked a bagatelle table up from leicester Knighten road club for £100 in the late 1980s, it was a full size approx 11 foot long , I also picked up a 8ft version also for very little money £50 I think from Derby Railway club , I must have had them sitting in my garage for a couple of years and then thought , I cannot be bothered doing them up , so took them down the auction at Johnsons in the Cattle market in nottingham ,as I was showing one of the auctioneers he said don't hold much hope selling those here , I was just about to close the back of the van when a chap tapped me on the shoulder and asked if he could look at them , he was a dealer from Belgium , he paid me £750 CASH for both of them that was a fair amount in the 80s , backed his van upto mine and took them .
I know where there are two more in Leicester , they used to have a Bagatelle league but I think they have folded it now .
I have two rough folding victorian lounge Bagatelles in my Garage that can go at a modest price if someone wants to do them up .
they look like this


I also note that youre Bagatelle table has 6 legs , most have just 4 ,so another thing that makes it rare . it certainly is no novelty , bagatelle was a game used often in victorian times , and as you play from one end it requires very little space for cue room .

[Hungarian]

Well there you are Geoff. I hope you are well Sir. Your reputation preceeds you. Wity says hello from the AZ forums in the US. I like your folding tables, they look nice. By the way my beast of a Bagatelle table is about 12 feet long by 4 feet wide (3) pc slate with (6) side pockets, (3) on each side. I'm excited to get some detailed info. Do you think there is any paperwork, photos, instructions out ther on this? How do you play this game with (6) side pockets? Where the heck is this monster from? You think you could dig around and find some details out?

Thank you in advance,
Mark in Houston, TX

[Geoff Large]

Well there you are Geoff. I hope you are well Sir. Your reputation preceeds you. Wity says hello from the AZ forums in the US. I like your folding tables, they look nice. By the way my beast of a Bagatelle table is about 12 feet long by 4 feet wide (3) pc slate with (6) side pockets, (3) on each side. I'm excited to get some detailed info. Do you think there is any paperwork, photos, instructions out ther on this? How do you play this game with (6) side pockets? Where the heck is this monster from? You think you could dig around and find some details out?

Thank you in advance,
Mark in Houston, TX

try this info
http://www.billiardsforum.info/pool-...elle-rules.asp

and
http://www.mastersgames.com/rules/bagatelle-rules.htm

[100-uper]

Geoff beat me to it regarding a Google search for the rules of bagatelle and you will see from the results that there a number of variations.

Bagatelle was regarded by billiard table users in much the same way as chess players regard draughts. There were no standardised rules and tables would have been supplied with instructions issued by the manufacturer. One thing we can be fairly sure about is that the pockets provided additional scoring opportunities. Tables with two pocket are relatively common, the design having persisted into the 1930s, so rules pertaining to these tables could give you a clue.

My key source for this sort of information are the books of "Captain Crawley" (Frederick Pardon) in the 1860s and 70s. Although Crawley acknowledges bagatelle tables existed with pockets at this time, he assumes that the reader knows the number of pockets so does not mention them in any detail.

One thing I would also say is that although important billiard table makers like Thurston have been mentioned in connection with this table, there were also a number of specialist bagatelle table makers in London at the end of the 19th century, such as Parkins & Gotto, and Fletcher. I assume there are no names hard stamped anywhere on the frame of the table?

[Geoff Large]

I think with the legs being as large as any billiard table that it was one of the well known manufacturers , the lesser known makers used to make them with thin legs , I have even seen a well known department store Gamages sell Bagatelle and listed them in their catalogue and the Billiard diners , manufactured by George Edwards or George wright and then rebranded gamages .
I know of one modern Bagatelle which was manufactured around the 1930s/50s , it is an oak one with square legs and made by riley , it is 12 foot long version and only has 4 legs .
I know Thurston used to do a leg like the one's on your bagatelle , a turned leg with a four sided eye in the upper turn , Burroughs and watts also did that design , but I am pretty sure it is not B&Watts.

We are all guessing realy , without a name plate it could be any of over 40 firms.
one thing I will point out about youre frame though is that George Wright made his inner slate bearers very thick just like youre tables cross members . but he tended to use readed designed legs in many of his tables , but do not discount that fact ,as he did produce tulip design too which most of the firms also used .
also the customer who had the table commisioned may have had some input in leg design . and also maybe the 6 pockets , as 100-upper has explained the variations of rules on the tables with just two pockets would just be expanded to use 4 or 6 pockets .

I would think that youre sturdy made table would have been made for a large establishment , the smaller sized tables like 8ft variations would have been for the victorian household , so maybe a Gentlemans club where by they also had a full sized Billiard table and maybe had the same firm make , manufactured a Bagatelle table with the same designed legs ?

I may be wrong but there may also be hazard skittles placed a ball width away from the side cushions in another game that could be played on the Bagatelle table .

[philip in china]

Distinctly a Victorian pastime! In my 1908 Army & Navy Stores catalogue there are 3 pages devoted to snooker tables & accessories. There is a heading "Bagatelle Tables" but under that itjust says "Estimates & Particulars on application". There are a few folding boards for bagatelle. So by the Edwardian period it seems to have been dying out a bit.

Regarding the legs etc. I can quite imagine a club or mess having a snooker table and going to a manufacturer to get a bagatelle table and asking for it to match their existing snooker table. (I can also imagine a housewife saying "And if you think you are having a bagatelle table it had better match your snooker table or I will get one of the footmen to chop it up and burn it. And another thing...."

[Hungarian]

Classic....very funny..


Thanks..

Distinctly a Victorian pastime! In my 1908 Army & Navy Stores catalogue there are 3 pages devoted to snooker tables & accessories. There is a heading "Bagatelle Tables" but under that itjust says "Estimates & Particulars on application". There are a few folding boards for bagatelle. So by the Edwardian period it seems to have been dying out a bit.

Regarding the legs etc. I can quite imagine a club or mess having a snooker table and going to a manufacturer to get a bagatelle table and asking for it to match their existing snooker table. (I can also imcagine a housewife saying "And if you think you are having a bagatelle table it had better match your snooker table or I will get one of the footmen to chop it up and burn it. And another thing...."

[Hungarian]

So from what I'm reading from you and the other kind gentlemen is that this is likey a one off build to match a Snooker table. And this for sure is not a mass produced design. And so the chances of me finding any literature on this beast of a table is not very likely.

Cheers..

Distinctly a Victorian pastime! In my 1908 Army & Navy Stores catalogue there are 3 pages devoted to snooker tables & accessories. There is a heading "Bagatelle Tables" but under that itjust says "Estimates & Particulars on application". There are a few folding boards for bagatelle. So by the Edwardian period it seems to have been dying out a bit.

Regarding the legs etc. I can quite imagine a club or mess having a snooker table and going to a manufacturer to get a bagatelle table and asking for it to match their existing snooker table. (I can also imagine a housewife saying "And if you think you are having a bagatelle table it had better match your snooker table or I will get one of the footmen to chop it up and burn it. And another thing...."