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Oval Ended Bagatelle Table

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  • #16
    Photography during the victorian time would be the thing to get youre goods to a wider audience , so somewhere I expect the maker to have had some sort of photographic record of this table done , in the form of an advertisement in a newspaper just like top quality goods are advertised in country life Magazine today , it may be a one off , it may be a design that had various leg designs made or adapted for it , I think it is over built for a Bagatelle table , most mid victorian tables had rather slim legs turned from 5 to 6inch blocks , unlike your table which has full sized turned legs made from a 10 inch block looking at the upper carved ball area of the leg , also the use of 6 legs in place of the standard 4 legs and the 6 pockets are to me a special order .

    I would date the table from 1890 to 1910 , even though it has top plates as the (called pocket irons in the USA ) form of brass pocket plate and these where old fashioned come the early 1900s , I think in bagatelle tables the older type top plate would have been the preffered choice for a pocket .
    the more I look at it the more I think of George wright build quality with those wide cross members in the inner frame work although those legs look a bit Thurston to me ,
    I notice from the photo there is a name plate or a plate missing on the end curved cushion ? have you the exact size of the plate rebate hole, I may be able to measure a few plates includeing a Geroge Wright to see if it is close , as makers made their own plates the same size but different firms would use differant sizes and depth.

    Have alook at this Geroge Wright table with similar legs apart from the top ball of the leg I think the shape is the same , just add a bit more detail in the top ball on your bagatelle table


    also look at this George wright leg design ,very similar in shape don't you agree?


    also an advertisement for George wright


    if youre missing name plate is 4.1/2 inch by 2.1/16th inch then it is a George wright , four screw holes at each corner 1/8th thick rebate hole.


    Note that the fixing holes are not all in alignment , they where not too accurate when drilling the holes , they kept the hole away from the edge of the Ivory plate to avoid breaking the ivory when screwing up , and often drilled through the letters . so each table would have had random hole measurements to each other , George Wright never jigged them up to be all the same . which often puzzled me as other firms did .
    I may be able to get you an IVORY original plate if you are missing it . and you find it is a George wright sized square hole for the above plate . it certainly looks like it from the photo. measurement will vary slightly so if it is a shade larger or smaller it prob still is a George wright.
    Last edited by Geoff Large; 1 September 2012, 09:49 AM.
    [/SIGPIC]http://www.gclbilliards.com

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    • #17
      Originally Posted by Hungarian View Post
      So from what I'm reading from you and the other kind gentlemen is that this is likey a one off build to match a Snooker table. And this for sure is not a mass produced design. And so the chances of me finding any literature on this beast of a table is not very likely.

      Cheers..
      I wouldn't say it was "likely" to be a one-off. Much more likely to be a specific design offered by a particular manufacturer.

      One thing I have noticed in the large number of trade catalogues I have seen, is that towards the end of the 19th century there is a rapid growth in the number of commercial hotels advertising billiard and bagatelle tables amongst their facilities. If I had to guess, I would think that your table was probably aimed at this market.

      By way of literature, the best you are likely to find is a period advert for the table, which, other than the name of the manufacturer, probably wouldn't tell you much more than you already know. The rules which might have accompanied the table are very unlikely to have survived, although if you knew in which building this table was originally installed you might check to see if they were still hanging on the wall !

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      • #18
        if you measure the rebate hole and it fits the George wright plate dimensions I will be 100% sure it is then a George Wright as no other billiard firm made those dimensions for their name plates .

        if not then it's back to just guessing .

        George Wright went overboard in build quality to try and get a foothold in the market away from the leading billiard houses like Thurston and burroughs and watts , his tables had extra thick frame work just like youre bagatelle table , his Ivory name plates where extra thick and Large , unlike other makers which where thin smaller and long type , looking at the end curve of your bagatelle there looks to be a large rebate hole , measure this , I would think his name plates cost twice as much as a thurston plate to produce , no expense spared on a George Wright table , its just a gutt feeling 6 legs is over the top so are 6 pockets , it all points to George wright for me .
        [/SIGPIC]http://www.gclbilliards.com

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        • #19
          nice example of a makers plate in perfect condition no damage considering age

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          • #20
            Gentlemen,

            Thank you all very much for your inputs. I can't tell you how much I appreciate each of you taking the time to help me identify this table.


            Geoff,

            1.) Thanks for the leg comparisons. I do believe you are on to something about this being a George Wright table. Both of the legs you show have very similar characteristics to my legs.

            2.) I'm not exactly sure what you mean regards to your comment "I notice from the photo there is a name plate or a plate missing on the end curved cushion". Which photo are you talking about? I've looked everywhere and cannot see where a name plate is missing. Nor can I find any holes except for where the Spencers nameplate is. The Spencers nameplate measures 5 -7/16 inches by 2 inches. I could remove it and see if there are signs that there was another nameplate under it.

            3.) If we determine that it is a George Wright I would be interested in purchasing your nameplate.

            Thanks again.

            Cheers,
            MArk

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            • #21
              It would be worth looking under the existing plate. If someone were "rebadging" it they would have screwed the new plate over the old holes.
              王可

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              • #22
                at the end where the cue rack is leaning against the table , from the small photo I could not make out if it had a name plate there or if it was missing , , take the name plate off and look for signs of an older one there . it is possible that the other plate was put over the top of the old one or it was taken off and replaced . A common ocurance on billiard tables when plate collectors have stolen the plate or a rerubber plate is put on .

                I used to maintain a very nice Hennig Brothers table in a large country estate for foreign students , and some students from the usa where taking momento's of their stay , the end plate to the Hennig table went too , the table was sold some years later and the dealer who bought the table which was heavely carved with lions heads , thought the table was a burroughs and watts , my old boss back then John hopkin then showed me a nice glossy antiques magazine with this table advertised in it , I informed him they had got the manufacturers name wrong and it was a Hennig Bros table . He informed them so they have now put this right in their records and removed the Burroughs and watts name from the advertisement .
                here is small photo of that table
                Last edited by Geoff Large; 2 September 2012, 02:07 PM.
                [/SIGPIC]http://www.gclbilliards.com

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                • #23
                  just to throw a spanner in the works have a look at the upper part of this advertised as a burroughs and watts the leg said to be designed by John Roberts from another billiard dealers website . note the upper eye carvings in the top ball of the leg , the lower leg is the common tulip leg design , I have added a close up of youre leg too.
                  note also the scrolls either side of the tulip leg , youre bagatelle has a deep top block on the leg that protrudes further down than the side frame , look for evidence of a scroll that would have been screwed either side of the leg to the underpart of the side frame , there should be screw holes left if they where removed . they would have been an expensive option back in the day .



                  link to john roberts information .

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ro...liards_player)
                  Last edited by Geoff Large; 2 September 2012, 11:54 AM.
                  [/SIGPIC]http://www.gclbilliards.com

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                  • #24
                    Couple of magnificent tables there!
                    王可

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                    • #25
                      Originally Posted by Geoff Large View Post
                      just to throw a spanner in the works have a look at the upper part of this advertised as a burroughs and watts the leg said to be designed by John Roberts from another billiard dealers website
                      I'd be interested in taking a look at your reference for that. As far as I know John Roberts didn't supply any designs to Burroughes & Watts, at least not voluntarily. They picked up some of his patents after his bankruptcy in 1896, but as according to the information I have to hand these related only to cues. I do have a catalogue for John Roberts from 1895 but unfortunately it doesn't illustrate any of his tables and I have only positively identified one design which he produced, so if this is a second it would be of interest to me.

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                      • #26
                        hi Peter , here is the link to the information that I took it from , look down the list until you come to the burroughs and watts table and read the description at the side , I do not know if the referance to Roberts can be backed up , I do know that other people had signed over designs or patents to B&watts in the past such as the J P MANNOCK designed cue for a royalty , maybe Roberts did the same ? the table in question is a steel block so sometime after 1895 I would think is the age of this table .
                        I have come across the design before but have forgot where the table was situated.

                        link
                        http://www.anthonyandpykett.co.uk/uk2shop-1.htm
                        [/SIGPIC]http://www.gclbilliards.com

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                        • #27
                          Hi Fellas,

                          Just checking in to say hello and thank you again for the info.

                          Cheers,
                          Mark

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                          • #28
                            I think they need a can of Pledge and a soft duster there!

                            Originally Posted by Geoff Large View Post
                            just to throw a spanner in the works have a look at the upper part of this advertised as a burroughs and watts the leg said to be designed by John Roberts from another billiard dealers website . note the upper eye carvings in the top ball of the leg , the lower leg is the common tulip leg design , I have added a close up of youre leg too.
                            note also the scrolls either side of the tulip leg , youre bagatelle has a deep top block on the leg that protrudes further down than the side frame , look for evidence of a scroll that would have been screwed either side of the leg to the underpart of the side frame , there should be screw holes left if they where removed . they would have been an expensive option back in the day .



                            link to john roberts information .

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ro...liards_player)
                            王可

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                            • #29
                              Hi Folks,

                              Mark from Houston, TX. I'm preparing to set up my bagatelle table. Thanks for all your comments last year and sorry for not stopping by more often... While I was cleaning and moving the two oval rail sections I noticed how flimsy and loose the glued segments seem to be. So I was thinking about having my sheet metal working buddy to make me a set of aluminum rings (one flat ring attached to the under side of the rail that would act as a slate shim and one attached to the bottom side of the of the blind rail. These rings would stiffen the rail up allowing me to clamp it down tightly to the slate and maybe also shim it up to play with 2 1/4" balls. I could then install Artemis K-66 cushion all the way around. I believe it can be made to play real good.

                              What do you guys think of turning this into a "triple" hybrid table with "live" curved banks on both ends?

                              Thanks in advance...

                              Attached Files

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                              • #30
                                OK Folks, I came to my senses. I deserved the lack of response. I'm just setting up normal.

                                Cheers..


                                Originally Posted by Hungarian View Post
                                Hi Folks,

                                Mark from Houston, TX. I'm preparing to set up my bagatelle table. Thanks for all your comments last year and sorry for not stopping by more often... While I was cleaning and moving the two oval rail sections I noticed how flimsy and loose the glued segments seem to be. So I was thinking about having my sheet metal working buddy to make me a set of aluminum rings (one flat ring attached to the under side of the rail that would act as a slate shim and one attached to the bottom side of the of the blind rail. These rings would stiffen the rail up allowing me to clamp it down tightly to the slate and maybe also shim it up to play with 2 1/4" balls. I could then install Artemis K-66 cushion all the way around. I believe it can be made to play real good.

                                What do you guys think of turning this into a "triple" hybrid table with "live" curved banks on both ends?

                                Thanks in advance...

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]13635[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]13636[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]13637[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]13638[/ATTACH]

                                Comment

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