Supreme Winner, a challenge to level it.

[CavingAz]

Hi,
Please see below for original thread, I was advised to post here to talk to some experts , so hopefully may get some help.

I am attempting to level a Supreme Winner pool table which is brand new.
I have the table level end to end and corner to corner is not too far out either.
However , I cannot work out why when I run balls down each rail (top to bottom, bottom to top), the balls pull off the rail by around a half ball to full ball by the time the ball reaches the corner pockets.
I have been reluctant to pack the centre of the slate on the cross members but have tried this and it has made some improvement.
Any thoughts on overall approach and opinions on packing the centre to off set this roll would be welcomed.

Thanks
Cavingaz.

Original Source: http://www.thesnookerforum.co.uk/boa...#ixzz2Oiod5YOL
- TSF - TheSnookerForum.com

[Geoff Large]

hi Cavingaz

first thing is do not pack on the cross members , this leaves a gap under the slate and you could get a broken slate if leaned on too heavy .

when you take the slate out of the table , you will notice that the centre ball section has two fibre upright boards that also support the slate it's entire lenth either side of the central ball run , the table may be suffering from central dip of body and therefore the slate also dips in the middle .

if you take a staple gun , and have some strips of thin cloth , place a strip on each central ball tunnel upright about the width of where the two alloy cross members are , staple one strip each side within the cross member , then useing a smaller strip say 6 inch shorter , also staple this on top of the longer strip both sides of the ball tunnel with 3 inch at each end shorter then the first strip , place slate back in and see if the centre is now level , if not take another strip 6 inch shorter then the 2nd strip both sides , what we are trying to do is raise the centre of the slate by building a pyramid with shorter strips of cloth by 3 inch at each end on top of each other , this will support the slate along it's lenth , much better than trying to pack ontop of the alloy cross bars with say beer mats which most people do in pubs and club's .
three strips each side of the central ball tunnel is normaly all it takes on average , but two could be ok .

one of the worst things that you can do to any pool table , is use those table jack up trollies , if the table is left suspended in the air , it causes the cabinet to warp , also moving them very often , will result in the jointing of the cabinet to loosen up . up down up down etc .
The best way to move pool tables is 4 home made skates useing good strong wheels , just lift the table up and place a skate under each leg , the table then is supported as if it was still on the floor , and the cabinet is not distorted .

also advise buying an 8 inch engineers level or an electronic digital level off ebay . like the one in my web site photo .

and like any napped cloth , a good iron very often ( every day ) will keep the cloth playing better , rather than let it become shabby with no ironing .

look at the level in this link , these are great for leveling Pool tables , and simple to use .

http://gclbilliards.com/very-level-p...-in-leicester/

on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_fr...it+level&rt=nc

Rabone engineering 8 inch http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/J-Rabone-S...item2579e08905

[maryfield]

Always been a design flaw with tables. In my own club I have went to the bother of adding a fifth leg which supports the centre ball run Geoff referred to. This is extended with a threaded rod up through the cabinet base with 12 x 16 inch steel plate which sits atop the threaded rod inside the cabinet just touching the underside of the uprights of the centre ball run. The threaded rod is lengthened via a nut until the sag is taken out of the slate. I had the benefit of having some spare legs which I could use. If you can't get hold of a single leg you can fashion one from a piece of 4 x 4 timber with threaded plates, a couple of pool feet and either a steel plate or square of mdf 12 x 16 inches. If anyone fancies trying it I can post pics.

[RGCirencester]

Can I just add for anyone that doesn't know; with any bubble level don't set it so that the bubble is in the middle.
The engineer ones are adjustable and levels will vary with temperature. If you want your surface as level adls possible you should set it so that the bubble is in the same physical location with the level turned 180 degrees.

If anyone doesn't understand, exaggerate the flaws so that the spirit level is at 45 degrees vertically. If you place it on a completely level surface the bubble will sit all the way to one side (even though the surface is level). If you turn the level 180 degrees the bubble will now be on the opposite side relative to your viewpoint (because the high side has been moved not because the table is now leaning the opposite way!)

I imagine snooker tables don't need nearly the accuracy I work with however I always try to do this with anything.

[billabong]

Can I just add for anyone that doesn't know; with any bubble level don't set it so that the bubble is in the middle.
The engineer ones are adjustable and levels will vary with temperature. If you want your surface as level adls possible you should set it so that the bubble is in the same physical location with the level turned 180 degrees.

If anyone doesn't understand, exaggerate the flaws so that the spirit level is at 45 degrees vertically. If you place it on a completely level surface the bubble will sit all the way to one side (even though the surface is level). If you turn the level 180 degrees the bubble will now be on the opposite side relative to your viewpoint (because the high side has been moved not because the table is now leaning the opposite way!)

I imagine snooker tables don't need nearly the accuracy I work with however I always try to do this with anything.

+1

I've calibrated a few granite tables with a level that had a rise of 0.002mm over 100mm, per division.

Took about 2 days measuring , then calculating the flatness values . .


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[philip in china]

This is why I suggested you should repost on "tables". Where else would you get this level of good advice for free?

hi Cavingaz

first thing is do not pack on the cross members , this leaves a gap under the slate and you could get a broken slate if leaned on too heavy .

when you take the slate out of the table , you will notice that the centre ball section has two fibre upright boards that also support the slate it's entire lenth either side of the central ball run , the table may be suffering from central dip of body and therefore the slate also dips in the middle .

if you take a staple gun , and have some strips of thin cloth , place a strip on each central ball tunnel upright about the width of where the two alloy cross members are , staple one strip each side within the cross member , then useing a smaller strip say 6 inch shorter , also staple this on top of the longer strip both sides of the ball tunnel with 3 inch at each end shorter then the first strip , place slate back in and see if the centre is now level , if not take another strip 6 inch shorter then the 2nd strip both sides , what we are trying to do is raise the centre of the slate by building a pyramid with shorter strips of cloth by 3 inch at each end on top of each other , this will support the slate along it's lenth , much better than trying to pack ontop of the alloy cross bars with say beer mats which most people do in pubs and club's .
three strips each side of the central ball tunnel is normaly all it takes on average , but two could be ok .

one of the worst things that you can do to any pool table , is use those table jack up trollies , if the table is left suspended in the air , it causes the cabinet to warp , also moving them very often , will result in the jointing of the cabinet to loosen up . up down up down etc .
The best way to move pool tables is 4 home made skates useing good strong wheels , just lift the table up and place a skate under each leg , the table then is supported as if it was still on the floor , and the cabinet is not distorted .

also advise buying an 8 inch engineers level or an electronic digital level off ebay . like the one in my web site photo .

and like any napped cloth , a good iron very often ( every day ) will keep the cloth playing better , rather than let it become shabby with no ironing .

look at the level in this link , these are great for leveling Pool tables , and simple to use .

http://gclbilliards.com/very-level-p...-in-leicester/

on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_fr...it+level&rt=nc

Rabone engineering 8 inch http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/J-Rabone-S...item2579e08905

[CavingAz]

Hi Geoff and others,
Thanks for your advice.
Before I start with the adding the pyramid of cloth etc. I wanted to clarify a couple of points with further questions.
As I explained , the table is brand new -6 weeks old- and has never been moved on a trolley or for that matter without a trolley.
So how likely is it that it is suffering from slate sag in the centre.
Secondly it has the cloth on it from Supreme, and has been brushed and ironed weekly. how likely is it that there could be glue around the rail area, I certainly can't feel any unevenness.
Some other observations on the behaviour of the balls.
whilst the balls roll away from the rails, running a ball from baulk to rack end down the centre of the table it stays on line.
Also, performing the corner to corner test - from baulk to rack end on both diagonals the ball goes into the centre of the pockets.
Going from rack end to baulk end across the diagonal the ball drifts into the side rail on both sides. I think this suggests the table is too high at the baulk end????? But when I go across the table at the top and bottom rail it appears to run true, as does going straight across the table at the centre pocket.
I know there is a lot of information there and hope it reads ok.
I have looked after the tables at this venue for a number of years and have never experienced this type of issue before, hence my post.
Thanks
Gary

[CavingAz]

An update on the levelling the new Supreme winner.
I have the table running true corner to corner and also corner to centre pockets, and also along all rails.. In short pretty good all over...
However
Looking from the baulk end, using 4 balls flush on the rail to test, I cannot get a ball to run down the rail into the corner pocket , and more specifically from the right middle pocket down to the right corner, the ball rolls away from the rail to the tune of three qrtr ball
If I run a ball along the same rail up towards baulk, again the ball pulls away from the rail a lot.
There is an area of the rail where the ball clearly starts to deviate away and keeps going!
I have brushed and ironed the area, and cannot feel anything under the cloth.
If I move away from the rail by about 15cm, the ball stays straight. Also running down the centre of the table , baulk to rack end the ball runs true.
So I guess my questions are
Is there likely to be glue causing this issue(given that the table is new from Supreme) do they glue the slate edge or on the playing surface?
Could the cloth have a fault itself or can it be too tight ?
Could there be an issue with the slate in this area?

All views welcomed thanks

Gary