Antique burroughs and watts steel block snooker table and life pool scoreboard

[Geoff Large]

It is the Rigidus frame where the centre legs are closer and not spaced even , there is cross members on the slate joints only two fixed across the centre legs and two adjustable on the first slate joints , and no muntings ( slate bearers) like on a normal even spaced legged table .
They did square legged ridgidus framed table and fancy legged ridgidus like this http://www.bandwbilliards.com/table_detail.php?ID=16

as for how old, the name plate gives the game away when you can read Vacuum cushion that is early steel blocks prob circa 1895 / 1920 ? but nearer the 1920s date I think , but that square leg design was made right upto the 1950s . Depends if the badge is original or add on from another table .
they stopped using the vacuum holed blocks that the rubber sits on after the 1920's /1930's but I do still come across tables with the holes behind the rubber later to become one long slot.

Maybe 100 upper has got the date from his collection of leaflets and books that the ridgidus frame was first manufactured , there are 12 legged versions of this table around too , 6 legs down each side . one is at British sugar Factory Newark Nottinghamshire , and two more although one has gone from another club close to Newark and Mansfield.

the pocket plates ( irons) are Peradon Broad bow size , but you may require 6 corner pockets as the middles in these packs sometimes do not fit the centre plate , so I use corners and cutt them down . you have to trim all leathers down to size as they are not an exact fit .

[lesedwards]

Thanks Geoff that is a pile of information and really helps out. I will contact the billiard tech that installed it for me am see what he can come up with. I can probably just get the leather covers now I know what I am looking for.

[100-uper]

Maybe 100 upper has got the date from his collection of leaflets and books that the ridgidus frame was first manufactured , there are 12 legged versions of this table around too , 6 legs down each side .

The Rigidus frame first appeared immediately after the first War, about 1920. The earliest tables used exactly the same designs as were being produced before the War and the only way to identify them as later models is the design of the frame.

Bearing in mind that the maker's plate dates from 1923 – 1935, and only Burroughes & Watts produced this type of frame, I would say that the plate must be contemporary with the table as there would hardly be time for it to need a new set of cushions to be fitted, and the plate to have been replaced.

[lesedwards]

The Rigidus frame first appeared immediately after the first War, about 1920. The earliest tables used exactly the same designs as were being produced before the War and the only way to identify them as later models is the design of the frame.

Bearing in mind that the maker's plate dates from 1923 – 1935, and only Burroughes & Watts produced this type of frame, I would say that the plate must be contemporary with the table as there would hardly be time for it to need a new set of cushions to be fitted, and the plate to have been replaced.

Thanks for the info. So you would say my table was made sometime between 1923 & 1935 one thing i did notice most B and W tables here in Canada say Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto on them but mine says 19 Soho Square which i figure means mine was made at the head office.

[100-uper]

Thanks for the info. So you would say my table was made sometime between 1923 & 1935 one thing i did notice most B and W tables here in Canada say Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto on them but mine says 19 Soho Square which i figure means mine was made at the head office.

I don't have a great deal of info on the Canadian operations, but I know that Burroughes & Watts were supplying tables in Canada before the first War, and these would have been imported from England. I think that they only started producing table plates which referenced Canada in the 1930's when the size of business increased. I'm not sure this would effect the range of dates I suggested.

[lesedwards]

It is the Rigidus frame where the centre legs are closer and not spaced even , there is cross members on the slate joints only two fixed across the centre legs and two adjustable on the first slate joints , and no muntings ( slate bearers) like on a normal even spaced legged table .
They did square legged ridgidus framed table and fancy legged ridgidus like this [url]http://www.bandwbilliards.com/table_detail.php?ID=

as for how old, the name plate gives the game away when you can read Vacuum cushion that is early steel blocks prob circa 1895 / 1920 ? but nearer the 1920s date I think , but that square leg design was made right upto the 1950s . Depends if the badge is original or add on from another table .
they stopped using the vacuum holed blocks that the rubber sits on after the 1920's /1930's but I do still come across tables with the holes behind the rubber later to become one long slot.

Maybe 100 upper has got the date from his collection of leaflets and books that the ridgidus frame was first manufactured , there are 12 legged versions of this table around too , 6 legs down each side . one is at British sugar Factory Newark Nottinghamshire , and two more although one has gone from another club close to Newark and Mansfield.

the pocket plates ( irons) are Peradon Broad bow size , but you may require 6 corner pockets as the middles in these packs sometimes do not fit the centre plate , so I use corners and cutt them down . you have to trim all leathers down to size as they are not an exact fit .

Hello Geoff can you check out the link below and tell me what you think of these leathers for my table, Item #4523
They say they work on B & W Large Broad Bow I think i would fit them while on the table that way I do not screw up cutting them. I look forward to your response.

http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Pocket_Parts.html

[philip in china]

Do you have a photo of the 12 legged table, Geoff? I would be very interested to see that. I think most people on the site would agree.

Hello Geoff can you check out the link below and tell me what you think of these leathers for my table, Item #4523
They say they work on B & W Large Broad Bow I think i would fit them while on the table that way I do not screw up cutting them. I look forward to your response.

http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/acatalog/...ket_Parts.html

[Geoff Large]

Hello Geoff can you check out the link below and tell me what you think of these leathers for my table, Item #4523
They say they work on B & W Large Broad Bow I think i would fit them while on the table that way I do not screw up cutting them. I look forward to your response.

http://www.fcsnooker.co.uk/acatalog/...ket_Parts.html

The 4523 are the Broad bow ones I said to get , on some B&Watts the centre pocket plate is a little too curved so if I was you order two sets , you may have to use 6 corner leathers , using corner leathers on the middle Irons as you call them , the standard middle leathers in the 4523 broad bows may be a little small on the curved centre pocket plate .
The best way to fit them is off the table , but some fitters take the old leather off and use these as a template over the new leather , try and slightly cut over size and trim once on table at the ends for perfect fit .
You only need to take off three cushion surrounds to do the leathers , leave the other three on , the two cushion woodwork either side of the baulk and the end black spot cushion . so undo all the pocket plate bolts and 4 bolts per cushion behind the slide out panel . you will find it so much easier to do this way having the pocket plate in you're hand .

[lesedwards]

Thanks Geoff, i am going to order them today. I am thinking now i should order new nets and rails seeing how i will have everything a part. Looking to see if i can find a set of rails that has the two longer ones for the black end.

[100-uper]

Do you have a photo of the 12 legged table, Geoff? I would be very interested to see that. I think most people on the site would agree.

Allow me ......



This was sold by Burroughes & Watts as the "Willie Smith" model.

[philip in china]

The idea, presumably, was to get a leg, and support, under each slate joint.

[Geoff Large]

The idea, presumably, was to get a leg, and support, under each slate joint.

Overkill design and too many legs to shim under , no real point if the frame wood is good and thick 8 legs is all that is required

the 8 legged one had support on all joints Phil two being adjustable .

that table in the photo is on my rounds at a club near Bilsthorpe close to Newark , they had two but sold one on ebay for £100 .both had steel block cushions . the other one on my rounds is at the British sugar factory in Newark .

Thanks to 100 upper had a library photo , I think I must have took the photo because it is the club I visit and it has just had a re-cover or is having it's first service after the re-cover , we used to call every three months just to service there .
the legs are just about stuck to the floor as the cleaner just mops around it , you can see the black gunge sticking to the legs.

[Geoff Large]

Thanks Geoff, i am going to order them today. I am thinking now i should order new nets and rails seeing how i will have everything a part. Looking to see if i can find a set of rails that has the two longer ones for the black end.

Les , don't buy the chinese or indian rails , look for solid brass with red rubber on the rails , these are period to you're table but will cost around £80 to £100 if you can locate a set ( I do have a set ), sounds expensive , but that's what they go for . the new rails will cutt through youre nets in very quick time , i always prefer the plastic rails as these are better for the net if buying new .
The long rails fall apart easy , and the nuts are very shoddy .
Best to buy the old original solid brass ones . they nearly always have red plastic or rubber on the ball rails .

[lesedwards]

The 4523 are the Broad bow ones I said to get , on some B&Watts the centre pocket plate is a little too curved so if I was you order two sets , you may have to use 6 corner leathers , using corner leathers on the middle Irons as you call them , the standard middle leathers in the 4523 broad bows may be a little small on the curved centre pocket plate .
The best way to fit them is off the table , but some fitters take the old leather off and use these as a template over the new leather , try and slightly cut over size and trim once on table at the ends for perfect fit .
You only need to take off three cushion surrounds to do the leathers , leave the other three on , the two cushion woodwork either side of the baulk and the end black spot cushion . so undo all the pocket plate bolts and 4 bolts per cushion behind the slide out panel . you will find it so much easier to do this way having the pocket plate in you're hand .

Hi Geoff, I have attached a couple photos both side pockets. The more I look at the the more I see something wrong. Not sure it's the leather as much as the iron is not fit right. Both sides are the same but just the opposite part of the iron is sticking out. Now I am wondering if they should be reversed. I know the pockets should fit either side but it is just a thought.

[Geoff Large]

Hi Geoff, I have attached a couple photos both side pockets. The more I look at the the more I see something wrong. Not sure it's the leather as much as the iron is not fit right. Both sides are the same but just the opposite part of the iron is sticking out. Now I am wondering if they should be reversed. I know the pockets should fit either side but it is just a thought.[ATTACH=CONFIG]14704[/ATTACH]

the pocket opening on you're older B&Watts on the centres should be 3.3/8ths gap between covered cushions before you refit the wood surround capping .

any greater and you will always get this gap , I am betting that both pocket iron bolts are not on and you only have one bolt in each iron , shoddy work if he left it like that !

there should be two bolts in every pocket iron . ( Brass pocket plate )

you can allow around 1/16th gap allowance before the upward pocket bolt will not align with hole in iron , and over hang the leather by 1/8th and fine trim when you have the table back together .

That leather is off an american pool table .