Antique burroughs and watts steel block snooker table and life pool scoreboard

[lesedwards]

the pocket opening on you're older B&Watts on the centres should be 3.3/8ths gap between covered cushions before you refit the wood surround capping .

any greater and you will always get this gap , I am betting that both pocket iron bolts are not on and you only have one bolt in each iron , shoddy work if he left it like that !

there should be two bolts in every pocket iron . ( Brass pocket plate )

you can allow around 1/16th gap allowance before the upward pocket bolt will not align with hole in iron , and over hang the leather by 1/8th and fine trim when you have the table back together .

That leather is off an american pool table .

Hi Geoff now this is making sense and yes there is only one bolt in both sides. I watched him set the corners and once you do that then you cannot change the center so if i was to take off the wood rails and loosen off the steel rails and make up the difference by sliding the side rails towards the center which might be like an 1/8" both ways this will make up the difference i am out on the sides because the corners are very tight. What should the corners be at the fall of the slate?

[Geoff Large]

Hi Geoff now this is making sense and yes there is only one bolt in both sides. I watched him set the corners and once you do that then you cannot change the center so if i was to take off the wood rails and loosen off the steel rails and make up the difference by sliding the side rails towards the center which might be like an 1/8" both ways this will make up the difference i am out on the sides because the corners are very tight. What should the corners be at the fall of the slate?

The corner openings at the fall should be no less than 3.5 inch and no greater than 3.3/4 od an inch , with 3.5/8th being club sized pockets and 3.5 as pro pockets .

look at this link and study the ball in the pocket opening photo , the measurement should be across the centre of the fall , so you are measuring the nearest part of the fall that protrudes into the table .
http://gclbilliards.com/snooker-and-...agers-read-on/

[lesedwards]

Just measured and mine are 3-1/4" no wonder it is tough to make a shot.

[lesedwards]

I pulled out my templates which i got from Terry Davidson and i have a couple issues the first being the center pockets measures almost 3-3/4 instead of 3-3/8 so by moving the steel block towards the center this will correct both the iron problem and the width problem. Then when i put my template over the corner the rubber is not cut correct. Right now I have 3-1/4" at the fall and under 3" half way back. The pocket should never get any smaller after the fall and should be under cut. So as soon as my new leathers and rails come in i am going to pull my rails and pull back the cloth and re shape the corners then set my rails at 3-5/8 for the corners and i should be in great shape.

[DeanH]

sounds like you are slowly getting there
also, you may have a new calling... table fitter

[lesedwards]

sounds like you are slowly getting there
also, you may have a new calling... table fitter

Now that is funny but I am begining to think I know as much as a lot of the clowns i have used. I pulled my table a part today and followed the Master Table Fitter Geoff Large recomondations. I loosened off my steel rails and adjusted my corner pockets to 3-5/8" which basically opened the corner pockets up by a 1/4" which closed up the sides by 1/2" to new opening of 3-3/8" which is what they are supposet to be. I was going to take my TV Templates and fix the rubber but there is not enough to play with so they will have to stay until I change the rubber. I have attached a before and after of my side pockets. Thanks Geoff

[philip in china]

I can't speak for Canada but there certainly are some cowboys around in UK! Some of the stories Geoff tells, supported by photos, are amazing. The speed fitters just don't care. Of course as long as people buy purely based on price they can get away with it.

One point is the "fitters" who will do a "full refurbish" for prices which are simply impossible. One can find tables for sale by dealers who claim to have fully refurbished them. The prices should indicate to anybody that the tables cannot, possibly, have undergone anything more than a rudimentary quick fix.

[jrc750]

... I have attached a before and after of my side pockets. Thanks Geoff
[ATTACH=CONFIG]14751[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]14752[/ATTACH]

Nice job, you must be very pleased with that

[lesedwards]

Yes proud of our work

[DeanH]

nice job Les

[lesedwards]

It is the Rigidus frame where the centre legs are closer and not spaced even , there is cross members on the slate joints only two fixed across the centre legs and two adjustable on the first slate joints , and no muntings ( slate bearers) like on a normal even spaced legged table .
They did square legged ridgidus framed table and fancy legged ridgidus like this http://www.bandwbilliards.com/table_detail.php?ID=16

as for how old, the name plate gives the game away when you can read Vacuum cushion that is early steel blocks prob circa 1895 / 1920 ? but nearer the 1920s date I think , but that square leg design was made right upto the 1950s . Depends if the badge is original or add on from another table .
they stopped using the vacuum holed blocks that the rubber sits on after the 1920's /1930's but I do still come across tables with the holes behind the rubber later to become one long slot.

Maybe 100 upper has got the date from his collection of leaflets and books that the ridgidus frame was first manufactured , there are 12 legged versions of this table around too , 6 legs down each side . one is at British sugar Factory Newark Nottinghamshire , and two more although one has gone from another club close to Newark and Mansfield.

the pocket plates ( irons) are Peradon Broad bow size , but you may require 6 corner pockets as the middles in these packs sometimes do not fit the centre plate , so I use corners and cutt them down . you have to trim all leathers down to size as they are not an exact fit .

Hi Geoff a month ago I ordered the pocket leathers from FCSnooker and nothing ever came so now they are refunding my money. Do you know where I can order 4523 pocket leathers? I tried Peardon but they will not sell direct.

[Geoff Large]

Hi Geoff a month ago I ordered the pocket leathers from FCSnooker and nothing ever came so now they are refunding my money. Do you know where I can order 4523 pocket leathers? I tried Peardon but they will not sell direct.

http://www.titansports.co.uk/shop/Ta..._Sundries.html

Broad bow are the ones you require .

Geoff

[lesedwards]

http://www.titansports.co.uk/shop/Ta..._Sundries.html

Broad bow are the ones you require .

Geoff

Cheers Geoff I will look into them later tonight.

[lesedwards]

It is the Rigidus frame where the centre legs are closer and not spaced even , there is cross members on the slate joints only two fixed across the centre legs and two adjustable on the first slate joints , and no muntings ( slate bearers) like on a normal even spaced legged table .
They did square legged ridgidus framed table and fancy legged ridgidus like this http://www.bandwbilliards.com/table_detail.php?ID=16

as for how old, the name plate gives the game away when you can read Vacuum cushion that is early steel blocks prob circa 1895 / 1920 ? but nearer the 1920s date I think , but that square leg design was made right upto the 1950s . Depends if the badge is original or add on from another table .
they stopped using the vacuum holed blocks that the rubber sits on after the 1920's /1930's but I do still come across tables with the holes behind the rubber later to become one long slot.

Maybe 100 upper has got the date from his collection of leaflets and books that the ridgidus frame was first manufactured , there are 12 legged versions of this table around too , 6 legs down each side . one is at British sugar Factory Newark Nottinghamshire , and two more although one has gone from another club close to Newark and Mansfield.

the pocket plates ( irons) are Peradon Broad bow size , but you may require 6 corner pockets as the middles in these packs sometimes do not fit the centre plate , so I use corners and cutt them down . you have to trim all leathers down to size as they are not an exact fit .

Hi Geoff finally yesterday my Broad Bow Pocket Leathers arrived from Alliance Snooker in Liverpool. They look like they are going to be a perfect fit. One question the leather is very hard so not much give. Do you suggest preserving the leather and using something on it before I get started installing them?

[Geoff Large]

hi Les

They do differ from batch to batch , you can have hard and soft leather also i have had set's where one leather is thin and soft and the rest thick and hard .
You can look towards horse leather maintenance products to soften the leather up a bit things like bridle soap this may change the tone of colour though , or spray warm water onto them just before fitting , but only trim them when full dry as they may shrink .
As fitters we have to take them as they come out of the box and fit them , 99% of the time they are ok , but on occasions the leather can be a bit hard and balls do come out of the pocket , especially if the lower edge of the leather face is tight , the ball hits this part and it acts like a flipper on a pin ball machine and fires the ball back onto the table , if you look at some of the star tables on TV , you may notice where some fitter has put knife cuts into the leather just below the cord to make sure the leather does not flirt the ball back onto the table .
I think the problem is , every manufacturer keeps fiddling or tweaking with the design of the pocket plate , making the broad bow more like half way between a broad bow and an extra broad bow , the result is neither leather fits 100% and these knife cuts are put in to rectify the problem , thing is they do not look good .
The leather manufacturers make the leathers in certain sizes like the following , there are no in-between sizes so you have to fit the leathers as supplied.

Top plate leathers or narrow bow leathers as some call them fit the old Billiard top plates

Broad bow leathers fit Burroughs and watts and two pin plates ( most common size used )

Extra broad bow are for the standard Riley plate

Extra Extra Broad bow , these are for certain tables which have thicker bow brass some Riley's are like this .

Jubilee pocket leathers , these are only for the Thurston jubilee pocket plate which is the largest plate made .

Riley match leathers , these are used on Riley aristocrat steel cushioned tables fitted with match pocket plates and also Star tables

When I first started fitting we used to have flat leather and wet it and fit it to the plate , using a leather punch to make the holes , I still have some flat leathers from those early days left with holes pre punched into them , you could in those days order them steam shaped to fit or flat and pre punched to fit yourself , I used an hair dryer to dry the leather to shrink fit it to the pocket plate , time consuming and I am glad we do not have to do this nowadays.
Especially if the table was a Thurston Jubilee .

We also had a choice of colour leather back then , natural or dark brown , today if you wanted dark brown you have to pay around £10 to have them stained