Old free standing bagatelle table

[GaryM]

Hi Everybody.
I would be very grateful if anyone could give me any information or opinions about what I think is a Thurston's free standing Bagatelle table I have purchased recently.
I contacted Thurston's and they say the serial number 661, which is stamped into the table, is early 1800's. However, there is a very worn stenciled 'Thurston's of Liverpool' badge which seems to depict a gold medal. I understand that Thurston's were awarded a gold medal in 1851.
There is also what I take to be the craftsman's name stamped onto three of the legs; R.W Packer.
I would really like to know more about this before I begin its restoration. Any information or opinions regarding its age, maker's and anything else would be greatly appreciated.

There are some photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/100038717@N07/?saved=1
Many thanks.
Gary!

[gazza147]

I dont know much about it Gary but what i will say it will be a beautiful piece when they are restored as i have seen a few restored and they are stunning piece to have.

[GaryM]

You're right, they look fantastic when restored.
I played on a couple in Chester recently - there are a few pubs which still have them. It was a surprisingly addictive game. Sadly, it seemed only to be 'old boys' like myself who played.
There is a huge fund of snooker knowledge in the forum and I'm pretty sure someone will have some fascinating info. to share.

[100-uper]

Are you sure this is a Thurston table?

Ashcroft of Liverpool were the ones who put medals as a part of their advertising, which they did for a long time, and from the little I can see of the transfer it looks suspiciously like one of theirs. They won these medals (two of them) at Liverpool International Exhibition of 1886 which sets the earliest date for the table.

I've never seen a Thurston advert with a medal on it, nor with "Liverpool" as a primary address. Not to say that they didn't do this, and I just haven't come across it, but my money would be on Ashcroft.

[GaryM]

Thanks for that.
No, I'm not at all sure it's a Thurston table. The maker's transfer is as poor as it appears in my photo, so I had to pretty much guess. The idea of it being a very early table, was quite exciting.
So it's likely an Ashcroft table. Each leg is very heavy and made from one piece of mahogany. I am getting the missing 'windows' remade by a local joiner; he was very surprised to see them.
Thanks for your information, it's very much appreciated.

[philip in china]

Please let us see how it progresses.

[GaryM]

I certainly will. I think there's an hour or two's work ahead of me.

[ryanah147]

The table is definetly an Ashcroft & Co, Victoria St, Liverpool. I restored one of these, which was almost in the same condition as yours about 15 years ago. I wish you all the best in your restoration. If my memory serves me right I spent the whole summer working on it. For the amount of hours I spent with the restoration, didnt justify the amount of money I received in the aftersale, but I looked at it as a labour of love, and the end result was simply fantastic.
Hope you get he same kick of satisfaction as I got when you see it coming together slowly. Dont forget to post pics when its finished

[GaryM]

Thanks for your confirmation of the table's maker. I've just see some pictures of the Ashcroft workshop on the Norman Clare snooker heritage site.
I refurbish the occasional cue sport related item as a kind of paid hobby. I don't expect to make much when I resell the table, but when I saw it on ebay, I couldn't resist it.
I'll post pictures as the work progresses.

[Geoff Large]

with a tulip leg it could have been any one of the major billiard houses .

and with the stencil saying Liverpool then it does point towards Ashcrofts , I know Brian at Cheshire Billiards did a clear out of some timber stocks of Ashcrofts when they finally emptied the building , I think he also has some catalogues .

To through a spanner in the works though

The top part of the leg though ( the block ) has the familiar Burroughs and Watts inner hidden knee panel which they made oblong like this and also church window design . the type of panel you have to slide up then press to get the bottom of the panel to come out .
The tulip leg design for shape and slimness does support a 1850 to 1880 design .
Some fitters ( not me ) can tell what tulip leg was made by a certain billiard firm by the segmentation widths and how many segments in the leg , nearly all the billiard houses produced tables with the tulip leg design even Burroughs and watts .

Geoff

[GaryM]

Thanks for all the information Geoff.
The knowledge and experience needed to recognise a leg by the number of flutes must be huge!
Did these old companies ever use pieces made by others? I find it hard to imagine that a company would produce all the bits in house, that they needed for their items . I've noticed that the ivory and mother of pearl additions to some scoreboards are often very similar, despite the differing makers.
Gary

[Geoff Large]

Yes some companies did get together to produce products that could be sold on with their brand name on and not the manufacturers .

For instance some flip over Billiard diners made for Gamages the large department store in London where supplied by George Wright and George Edwards , but always had the Gamages name plate on not the manufacturer.
the Life snookers pool scoreboards are another item that we see different manufacturers names on the same design scoreboard .

I knew one fitter many years ago who claimed he could tell who made the tulip legs , by the measurement of the segments and by how many segments there where .
You do get the feel for some designs of tables legs and bolting systems and knee panels , like the Burroughs and watts insert knee panel , George wrights reeded legs , and the common Riley turned leg with the 4 rings around the centre , Burroughs and watts used bolted pocket plates where others continued using two pin or square and triangle or oblong lugs .
some Burroughs and watts cushion have the cloth retaining slip rebate in the mahogany or oak cushion rather than in the soft wood block .
We have oddities too like the Orme and son steel ribbon cushion slip , the Thurston adamant slate inserted cushion .

I am sure companies did use parts sourced from other Billiard firms , many of those folding Victorian parlour Bagatelle tables where made in one workshop then re-branded when they where bought by the billiard firms .
Those tulip legs are in the table designs of nearly all the Billiard firms , so if one large firm had say 4 Craftsmen making the legs two for own stock , and two for selling stock , and it is still happening today , you will get billiard firms subcontracting labour and selling their products to other billiard firms .


One modern table seller in the late 1990's called Titan selling Chinese imported tables with reeded legs , one such table was a Dining type , a few months late Riley where selling the same titan Diner as a Riley diner with their name plate on not Titans.

Geoff

[GaryM]

Thanks once again for the invaluable information.
The legs appear to have been altered sometime in their life. When I post some more pictures, I'll try and highlight this. I have begun to wonder whether they came from another table, or were perhaps standard legs which were adapted for this particular table.