Wavy slates

[RunningSide]

Hello!

I'm here struggling with a BCE westbury table from late 80's. I'm not sure if I'm demanding too high accuracy concerning the slates. So, this is the problem: On a straight frame I'm not able to set slates nicely. I believe that these slates are as a one original set. I'm positively setting them in right order, and there is also dotted markings showing correct joints.

There is two problems.

1) I have to use shimmings under some slates to make the joints meet properly. One to three playing cards (0,25-0,75mm) needed. (Why is this a "no-no-thing", as I have read from this forum earlier?)

2) The main issue: the slates are wavy, when inspected with a straight aluminium bar. The joint areas are making contact with the bar, but center areas of each slates are showing light from under the bar. There are gaps of 0,1-0,3mm between the slate and the bar. So, the joints are the high spots (and there is absolutely no fillers etc).

wavyslates.JPG

Am I asking too high accuracy here? How often do a table fitter meet this kind of set of slates? Is this wavy issue as a result of someone ruined the slates by grinding them or something? Or, is this standard accuracy for snooker slates?

If I purchase a new set of slates like this one, will I be able to just set them on a frame and have proper joints and true surface without shimming and other struggling?

http://www.dynamic-billard.com/en/pr...-pcs-screw-set

Any experience of these particular slates?

My main concern is that if I accept these waves and strecth a new and expensive cloth (precision) on, will these waves disturb the roll somehow. Or, is this uncertainty of mine just a sign of my inexperience as a "snooker table fitter"?

A proper table fitter is no option here. I did assembly my previous table and I managed to get reasonable playing conditions and level surface, however the wooden frame and legs and cushions were in horrible condition and furthermore this table had no steel blocks, so now I wanted to update my table as I was desperately needing re-clothing and re-rubbering anyway. However, I do not remember having that much problems with the slates at that time (quite a lot of shimming between slate and frame was needed tho).

So, will these wavy slates play well enough? Thanks for your opinions beforehand. And, YES, I know that I have a tendency to be way too accurate sometimes...

[philip in china]

I expect Geoff will answer this one in detail. The reason you shouldn't shim under slates is that if you do so you put them under load and they will sag.

[RunningSide]

Hi philip!

Thanks for your reply. Do you mean that slates will sag or the shims will sag into frame, or the frame blank will sag as a result of pin-point-load (sorry I don't know proper word for this)?

[philip in china]

I know slate seems 100% solid. I am also aware that today is April Fools' day but yes, slate will, over time, sag. So if you shim it the area where your shim goes is supported but the rest of the slate, until the very far edge, is under load and, over time, it will bend. The answer is to get the table dead level. My table in Europe was levelled using an electronic level. That will show the thickness of a bank note! The fitter got the table dead level with that! I have the photos somewhere.

Many fitters do use shims but it is wrong- it is a quick fix. I wanted mine to be done correctly.

[RunningSide]

Ok, thank you philip! I just wanted to be sure what you meant (my English is very limited).

My previous table's frame was way from straight and I used shims on that. This time I made this frame straight before setting slates on (as I wanted to get this one done properly as you did), but the differences in slate thickness make it impossible to just set the slates on without using some shims. I guess this set of slates here is no good. I find that waves on slates appear also where no shims needed. I wonder if these waves can be a result of long time shims under the slates from late 80's to presence (as you pointed out that sag thing). Or maybe these slates are just rubbish from the very beginning!

I hope there is some way to fix this to get a good set up.

[maryfield]

Wavy slates

Running side, you do not need to shim under the slates. You can usually address any anomaly in height by inserting a folded piece of card between the low slate and the wooden strip which is screwed to the slate for cloth fixing. Tighten the screw in the low slate first. Then tighten down the screw in high slate until slates heights are level. If this doesn't work double the thickness of the card. Do this with a manual screwdriver as it is easy to over tighten and lose screw grip into wood

The tolerances of your slates are better than the ones advertised on dynamic website which allows for accuracy between 0 - 0.5mm. Understandably you want to get this right but one can be too critical.

[RunningSide]

Hello maryfield! Thanks for your reply and advice.

Yep, I know that I can be too critical and asking for accuracy, which is not needed at all!! I mean that it is very much possible that those inaccuracies don't show up in any way when the cloth is on. However, I have no experience how demanding Hainsworth Precision cloth actually is, so that's why I'm now struggling and asking here. Any opinions about this? Will 0,2 mm down slope (parallel to short side of a slab) in the middle of slate slab affect notably the roll of a ball, if I'm able to get the table run fast.

[maryfield]

No. But,
with Precision cloth in particular which is a thin cloth, you need to ensure the slate seams are flush.

[Geoff Large]

If you have a good straight frame and you have steps at the joints , has someone set the table up in the past out of level then sand the joints down , you come along set the table up level maybe shoot the side rails straight with a large block plane , and now the joints have steps from the slate that was removed when out of level .
alloy straight edges are not a good tool to use , you require a good 6 foot engineering straight edge made from ground steel , but they cost around £1000 , I was lucky to buy one brand new for £300 from a Army surplus sale , they use them to check large diesel engine blocks and heads on Tanks and large trucks.

also has your BCE got adjustable muntins on , ( centre slate bearers that adjust by bolt )

If you have an Hargreaves made BCE , I have yet to see a good one of those , most have sanded down slates joints , out of true frames , and some slates came with iron ore lumps in that always stick up like bumps in the slate , they spark when you chisel them out and fill with car body filler .

I am not a big fan of BCE westbury table , I think the cushions are poorly made , and the precision is just not there , you can see this from the way they slot their bolt holes on standard cushions , but also the pocket plate bolt holes are also slotted on some and many do not align up , resulting in only one pocket plate bolt being used.

the Riley Aristocrat made in the Uk is a much higher quality table . but beware of chinese copy Aristocrats.

I try and get the joint as good as possible using as little as I can in the form of playing card in the tack wood or under the slate on the frame , then fill over with car body filler and using a block sand so that you feather the high joint to nothing , a small amount of filler should show disappearing to nothing from the lip of the high joint that is mainly the result of the clown who sanded it away in the first place.
It is taboo to pack between slate and frame but on some tables you just have to do it because they have not got the frame or joints correct.


if you have not got centre slate bearers that adjust , then make some brackets to fit and either use the existing fixed wood to make a floating bearer or put extra in .
like this http://gclbilliards.com/adjustable-muntins-retro-fit/

Fitting these will help keep the slates from sagging in the centre as well as helping to keep the length straight by overlapping support onto the next slates .

one other problem that may have occurred , stacking of slates on pallets for a long time can also warp the slate , if storing slates , always store them upright , the weight of 4 slates on top of the bottom one pressing down on an uneven pallet will effect the trueness of slates from bottom slate being really pressed out of shape bad to 2nd slate slightly and so on ,
when you shim all you are doing is putting the other side of the joint out at the same time you rectify the side you put the other side out and back and forth , soon the slate is off the frame with all that shimming . you have a slate supported at the joints only and the rest of the slate is on fresh air and begin to sag .

always store slate like this http://gclbilliards.com/a-full-size-...eicestershire/
never on a pallet flat , they can break easy and warp easy , I have seen up to 4 sets stored on top of each other , once this is done the slates are no good for use unless re-floated again which is expensive .
you may notice that the facing edge is stored outwards , this is to stop chipping of the facing edge , never store slates sideways , you will chip out the slate joints .
a simple thing of storing slate correctly is a must when you dismantle a table .

Geoff

[RunningSide]

Thank You Geoff very much for your comprehensive answer. I need to digest that for some time... Also, I need to try understand and study more what I am really encountering here.

Yes, I have adjustable muntins on this table. I replaced distorted woods and added metal plates under them where the bolt head makes contact. But, how do You find correct tightness for those bolts? Do you use that army straight edge here too? Or just "touch"/experience of suitable torque?

Thanks also for those tips of how to store slates right way.

There is another thread talking about slates and how to recognize ones. Under my slates reads:"CPA". Can you tell me some info about this?

[Geoff Large]

Erect the table with the adjustable muntins down , when you have leveled the table , wind the bolts up hand tight , then each bolt 1/4 of a turn to make contact with slate , with an engineers level , take a reading from each side of the slate , if both sides say slate is dipping in centre , then 1/4 of a turn each bolt , keep doing this over a period of time , not in one go , the slate should start to deflect back upwards to level as the muntin corrects the sagging slate .

if the bow or sag as I call it will not come out and the slate starts to rock then you're slates may require re-floating which I doubt you could do this at home , it requires special tools and sanding frames with two 10 foot poles to hand float slates , it cannot be done with just cue room around the table it requires much more space and there will be a lot of slate dust and sand to clear up .

But there is never such a thing as a perfect level table some do come very close but the slate just is not made to the exact tolerance of perfect level over a 12 foot span ,the frame will move the slates move , some tables even go out of level as you walk around the table or someone is standing on one side due to poor flooring , slate will move and deflect , it has a grain just like wood . you can sometimes see this grain on the softer Italian slate , sometimes with marbling streak passing through it , if you have these marbling streaks then this a is a fault in the slate and if handled rough the slate will come apart at this marbling fault .
try for 95% level but don't try 100% or it may drive you crazy , I have seen some shocking roll offs on TV star tables so it's not just your set of slates.

The best slate is Welsh or southern Irish , more or less the same vein traveling from wales to Ireland , it is much more heavy in density and almost blue in colour on some slate or very dark grey , all are hand floated by craftsmen in the day at the quarry or billiards house , these craftsmen have since died out so floating slate by a time served quarry man is going to be hard to locate , they use diamond cutting honing machines these days and they just cannot replicate the hand floated finish of yesteryear .

you are going to have to go for a method that levels the table by adjustable muntin , and car body filler feathered on the joints .
I would think youre table has been messed with over the years , by people not trained properly to set one up .
the slate has been sanded around those slate joints ? or stacked on a pallet for along period distorting them , or they where a bad set of slates manufactured from new , and you can get these .
I once sent a set of hand floated slates back to Enbild of Liverpool because they had not hand floated them correct and where way out , must have been a Friday afternoon set , they used to guarantee their slates tables for 10 years and sold all tables as hand floated slates , they where one of the last firms that offered a re-floating service , but sadly they are not trading anymore.

are you leveling the table with an engineers level ? like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rabone-Che...item461c2e0e4c

Do not try leveling with lower quality levels like builders level , they are just not accurate enough .

[RunningSide]

Thanks Geoff again! Very nice and helpful information there, and encouraging too.

Yes, I'm using 18 inch engineers level, which is a bit too accurate (5 lines on each side around the bubble). But I assume I can handle that over-accuracy by being a bit more forgiving. Needs few hour practice tho.

One thing more about these slates compared to my previous table slates: the prev ones had rotating grinding marks evenly overall, but these "new ones" have similar clearly (mostly) only at edge areas and not evenly. Is this a sign of hand floating?

I'm here wondering, if I should carry the old ones back to inside and use them instead. I'll have that option, if I can't make these "new ones" sit level and true. Also, I need to really take seriously your advice about making this 95% good, as I have tendency overdo things every now and then. That happens because of uncertainty in most cases...

[Geoff Large]

Will the old table slates align up with the cushion bolt holes ? and are the slate falls in the pockets the same

looks like someone has had a go at sanding those slates if they have some rotating diamond honing in place and none on other parts . maybe the boys who tried to say laser leveling have had a go at them, and just sanded the high spots down using a graph on a lap top connected to the lazer ,made up of shooting a laser up and down the slate bed to try and find high and low spots , a Gimmick and one that caused a lot of tables to be ruined , you don't hear of them anymore and thats because it never worked , the old method using an engineers level is best.

If a set is hand floated all you get is slight scratch marks running back and forth from end to end , you would see no honing curved lines in a set of hand floated slates . and those joints would be spot in line too.

The 5 line vial is called a GG tube , they are too accurate allow up to two digits out each way , anything in between these lines is ok

I prefer the 12 inch engineers level as do many billiards fitters., 18 inch can bridge a low spot , my mate still uses a 8 inch one .
two line none GG tube ones are best to use.

of course try for just outside of original two longer lines but i think you will be ok with anything between two lines out on a GG tubed vial level .
GG level is ok for say a 1 metre square machine bed , but on a 12ft by 6ft snooker table is is expecting too much to be within those tolerances of slate accuracy on 99%of tables , as I said no manufacturer makes Billiard / snooker slate that good , unless they where welsh slate hand floated by the old craftsmen .

[thommo335]

I have seen some shocking roll offs on TV star tables

I was at front row last week at Preston, Ryan Day played a roll up to a red near the middle pocket from almost the baulk cushion. As he threw his hands up in disgust I watched the cue ball turn like a crown green bowl!
Wasn't the TV table though and there was only a handful of us left at gone midnight, I wonder what the commentators would have said had it actually been the TV table.

[RunningSide]

Ok. Thank You Geoff.

Yes, the old slate bolt holes are suitable to new cushions. But, I'm not sure about the slate falls, got to check that before any major action.

I'll wrestle with those new slates tomorrow again. Good to hear those thoughts of yours about leveling tools. I'll let you know when I've achieved some/any results.

I'm really hoping to simply end up to a conclusion that I was demanding way too high accuracy.