Which cloth?

[moglet]

We shall have to agree to differ, the opinion is supported by a colleague who has been fitting cloths for 25 years. There was a time when a No10 was durable enough to warrant refitting, recently its quality is generally not was it used to be.
I used to think the No10 was the "holy grail" of snooker cloths and regret that this no longer seems to be the case. However, if you have found a way to refit them satisfactorily I will say no more.

[oselifer]

I am about to change my cloth.
I decided to take something more durable,as the table is a practice table..
If i take a tournament cloth and play 20 blacks in a row from the same place i am afraid there will be some white lines in the cloth after that..

So i am thinking about Hainsworth Smart which is a club cloth..
My other choise is Strachan Gold but i am afraid about its durability.
What's your opinion?
I want to keep the cloth for about 12-18 months..

[kevy62]

I am about to change my cloth.
I decided to take something more durable,as the table is a practice table..
If i take a tournament cloth and play 20 blacks in a row from the same place i am afraid there will be some white lines in the cloth after that..

So i am thinking about Hainsworth Smart which is a club cloth..
My other choise is Strachan Gold but i am afraid about its durability.
What's your opinion?
I want to keep the cloth for about 12-18 months..

Hi there, IMHO,

WOE 6811 Professional Tournament cloth @ £250 ish new unfitted.

Or ...... you should fit used ! (yes, i am sure someone is going to say never re-fit a used tournament cloth) but these are available from all over, for around £100 & upwards! they can be identified by the colour of the stiching & when "fitted correctly", will play exactly the same way as when it was originally fitted

I only suggest this as you are not trying to keep the cloth for 10 years or anything dumb, we use these used match cloths on riley strachan tables, these are match tables that get changed every season, & have done for the last 12+ years, they play incredibly fast & clean very easily too.

A word of warning though, our match tables have heated slates, & steel backed cushions, so are incredibly fast to begin with, we could fit an upturned army blanket to them & they would still be faster than anything else around!

At the end of the day, I do belive that you do get what you pay for, but look at it this way, If the cost needs to be met by you & it's your table then a used high quality match cloth has to be the better priced option.

[Geoff Large]

A word of warning about Strachan 6811 Tournament , inspect for white flecks trapped in the weave . Ive sent no end of bed cloths and rolls back , Stevie Wonder must be on quality control there.
Because of this problem always occuring we prefer Hainsworth Smart as the normal club cloth .
And Hainsworth Match as Match cloth .
2 clubs with 8 tables in each that I have made the switch over from strachan to hainsworth and the players are saying they prefer it over the Strachan .

[kevy62]

A word of warning about Strachan 6811 Tournament , inspect for white flecks trapped in the weave . Ive sent no end of bed cloths and rolls back , Stevie Wonder must be on quality control there.
Because of this problem always occuring we prefer Hainsworth Smart as the normal club cloth .
And Hainsworth Match as Match cloth .
2 clubs with 8 tables in each that I have made the switch over from strachan to hainsworth and the players are saying they prefer it over the Strachan .

You have obviously had a bad time of it! it is a very valid point though, I have heard of flecks in the past, but have personally never had any rolls with any present

Assuming most professional players will only have the best cloth's on their home tables, & won't put up with a lively cushion, let alone a bad cloth in tournaments, then why do almost all use West of England 6811 tournament cloths on their home table, or their table in the club they practice in ?


If you re-read my post you will see i suggest to use "used" match ex-tournament cloths, as a lower cost alternative to full price tournament cloth's

These cloth's are carefully checked & spot & blemish free & 1/3 of the price too, making them unbeatable for price & quality, which IMHO is the most cost effective way to keep match tables as superb players, & as the cost of the cloth is so low, you can easily change them every season, even twice a season if you really wanted to! keeping the table in tournament condition all year round


most professional players get offered the match cloths & get them for very little if any cost, so if you know any professional players, (you could clean up LOL) my advice is based on experience.
If these cloths are good enough for (WPBSA) matches then they are without a doubt, good enough for us mere mortals.

[moglet]

kevy62,

It would seem illogical for a professional to practice on a 6811 and then hope to do well when in a tournament where the cloth is a No 10.

[Geoff Large]

I have worked with west of england cloths from no 6 in the old days which was like putting a rug on , through to 6811 and no 10 , years ago they put a tag on the edge for every fault in the cloth , not much got past the quality control , Recent years and it seems that the quality control for the main cloth used in clubs and private use (6811 tournament) is riddled with these faults , to the Point that we had to decide to make the change over from Strachan to Hainsworth , It was not taken lightly as we have used Strachan Cloths since 1938 and always recomended them , But too many fleck faults are finding their way unchecked with no fault tags to side of cloth , one bed cloth I pulled off the roll contained 26 flecks , another had a fleck thread mark over 2 inches long , I got fed up with sending cloth back or making excuses that one fleck is ok , the cloth is priced as perfect , but it is not , why should a customer be expected to pay for seconds when they should be getting perfect Cloth , why should a fitter be expected to cover up for Strachans lack of quality control with this 6811 Grade of cloth .
I cannot say too much on the subject from the firms point of veiw as I am not speaking for the firm for whom I work , but as a Private individual .
But we have two main supply chains for this cloth , Both have supplied Faulty cloth , looks like quality controll from Strachan , and both these supply firms are as bad as each other .
At the end of the day I do not think there is much to choose between Hainsworth and Strachan cloths , both are made out of 100% wool , one makes the nap longer than the other and vice versa in differant grades , one has recently in the past two years changed the shade to a Darker Green , today was the first Recover since the change over , I fitted a Hainsworth Smart to a club table , Result is not one single fault , and customer delighted with the Recover .
I think I know where the white flecks are coming from , it is the man made sacking that the raw sheeps wool is bailed up in , when they slash open the bail the strands of man made fibre gets trapped in the weave , the Dye will not stain the man made fibre and the teasels scratch the thread of the man made fibre when making the nap, when the shearing of the nap lenth takes place the flecks are then visable , why the ultra violet light they use cannot pick out the faults is beyond me , I had a tour around the west of England factory many years ago when I first started fitting , so I am guessing this is where the fault is coming from , as it is obvoius that the white flecks or threads are man made fabric and as far as I know sheep do not grow this on their backs .
Simple solution is to not bail the wool in man made fabric , and use a materiel that if it gets trapped in the weave can be stained with the dye so to make it not visable .

Kevy-62 , we do not use second hand cloths in the clubs and private homes , but we do in youth clubs etc to keep price down for them . I do not think customers would like second hand cloths even if they did come off a tour table , the price of fitting the cloth is exaclty the same , they are only saving on the cloth not the Skilled labour .

[kevy62]

kevy62,

It would seem illogical for a professional to practice on a 6811 and then hope to do well when in a tournament where the cloth is a No 10.

Ok, so what the heck is ......6811 professional Tournament cloth ......then, answer? #10

WOE 6811 Professional Tournament cloth. finest cloth available, exactly as I have said in the last post too! as suplied to all UK/world championchip tournaments & the only cloth that is reccomended by both the (WPBSA) & (IBSF)

http://www.peradon.co.uk/pages/equipment/cloth.html

[kevy62]

I have worked with west of england cloths from no 6 in the old days which was like putting a rug on , through to 6811 and no 10 , years ago they put a tag on the edge for every fault in the cloth , not much got past the quality control , Recent years and it seems that the quality control for the main cloth used in clubs and private use (6811 tournament) is riddled with these faults , to the Point that we had to decide to make the change over from Strachan to Hainsworth , It was not taken lightly as we have used Strachan Cloths since 1938 and always recomended them , But too many fleck faults are finding their way unchecked with no fault tags to side of cloth , one bed cloth I pulled off the roll contained 26 flecks , another had a fleck thread mark over 2 inches long , I got fed up with sending cloth back or making excuses that one fleck is ok , the cloth is priced as perfect , but it is not , why should a customer be expected to pay for seconds when they should be getting perfect Cloth , why should a fitter be expected to cover up for Strachans lack of quality control with this 6811 Grade of cloth .
I cannot say too much on the subject from the firms point of veiw as I am not speaking for the firm for whom I work , but as a Private individual .
But we have two main supply chains for this cloth , Both have supplied Faulty cloth , looks like quality controll from Strachan , and both these supply firms are as bad as each other .
At the end of the day I do not think there is much to choose between Hainsworth and Strachan cloths , both are made out of 100% wool , one makes the nap longer than the other and vice versa in differant grades , one has recently in the past two years changed the shade to a Darker Green , today was the first Recover since the change over , I fitted a Hainsworth Smart to a club table , Result is not one single fault , and customer delighted with the Recover .
I think I know where the white flecks are coming from , it is the man made sacking that the raw sheeps wool is bailed up in , when they slash open the bail the strands of man made fibre gets trapped in the weave , the Dye will not stain the man made fibre and the teasels scratch the thread of the man made fibre when making the nap, when the shearing of the nap lenth takes place the flecks are then visable , why the ultra violet light they use cannot pick out the faults is beyond me , I had a tour around the west of England factory many years ago when I first started fitting , so I am guessing this is where the fault is coming from , as it is obvoius that the white flecks or threads are man made fabric and as far as I know sheep do not grow this on their backs .
Simple solution is to not bail the wool in man made fabric , and use a materiel that if it gets trapped in the weave can be stained with the dye so to make it not visable .

Kevy-62 , we do not use second hand cloths in the clubs and private homes , but we do in youth clubs etc to keep price down for them . I do not think customers would like second hand cloths even if they did come off a tour table , the price of fitting the cloth is exaclty the same , they are only saving on the cloth not the Skilled labour .

Hi there, I have neither said or implied that " you " use secondhand cloth's !

I have already stated You have obviously had a bad time of it!
it is a very valid point though, I have heard of flecks in the past, but have personally never had any rolls with any present ! bla bla bla!

Anyone who needs to know the difference in the cloth labels, check out below.

I'm trying to be subjective here, I am not your enemy, the guy just wants advise on a cloth to last a season or so! & possibly save some cash as well!

Also for your information i suggest you read this, it's old hat to me, but maybe not to others! this has become especially relevant as this topic now seems to be plastered all over the internet!

Elston and Hopkin posted this on their website 2 years ago: (link @ bottom)

Regular customers will know that we have always utilised West of England cloth manufactured by Strachan. The specific cloth we have bought by the roll was called 6811 Gold. However its all change and the following announcement has been made by Strachan.

6811 Silver has been replaced with 6811 Club. Club cloth will have gold lettering on the cloth edge and will be bordered in red. The product quality and price are remaining unaffected from the previous 6811 Silver.

6811 Gold (30 oz) will now be called 6811 Tournament. The cloth quality is unchanged but the gold lettering will be bordered by blue threads. The prices will also remain unaffected from the previous 6811 Gold. However both Tournament and Club are now fractionally darker than the previous cloths.

A few things to take note of :-

The price of the cloth has not altered , therefore customer prices should be the same - beware unscrupulous traders!
Ensure that when you ask for a quote for reclothing a table that the fitter always stipulates the cloth that is being used.
If there are no markings on the cloth specifying the name of manufacture or name of the cloth , be assured its not of a good quality.
Our customers receive exactly the same top quality of cloth whether they be commercial or domestic customers.
Please watch out for sub standard cloth being used. It will be marked sub standard and as in all things in life you get what you pay for. If the cost of a recover appears to be much cheaper than the majority of companies , there is undoubtedly a reason why !
Elston and Hopkin will continue to supply 6811 Tournament as our normal cloth.

http://www.elstonandhopkin.co.uk/blog/?p=35

[moglet]

So far as the Milliken West of England style cloth is concerned:

No 10, WSA specified. Difficult to fit, unreliable and a fit once and throw away. Very dependent on local climate. In ideal conditions, heated tables and so on, very fast and responsive to ball control. The construction of this cloth is quite different from the 6811 variations and does not wear too well.

6811, several grades. The top one Select, is just what it says and is selected from rolls already made. Not as fast as No 10 when newly fitted, but easier to fit. Then comes Gold Tournament, then Silver all 6811s but (unlike the competition who reject cloth that doesn't make the grade) the lesser cloth grades can be any weight and any speed. These cloths tend to slacken off over time and need re-tensioning to maintain their speed.

A W Hainsworth do a cloth (Match) with some of the better characteristics of the No 10 but is easier to fit and maintains its consistency better in different climate conditions. They also do a club cloth (Smart) that is equivalent for the higher grades of 6811. The Match cloth doesn't lose its tension over time so doesn't require stretching during its lifetime and is harder wearing than No 10 and 6811 Select.

This was posted earlier in the thread

[Geoff Large]

Elston and Hopkin as of this week use Hainsworth blemish free cloths as thier first choice , the web site has not been updated with that info yet , I doubt you will get any firm publicly state the problem I have experienced with the 6811 tournament cloth , but as I've first hand experience with the problem that is always reacurring , I would as a private idividual and not as a spokesperson of any firm .

Kevy62 I know you are not my Enemy , and hope you do not feel that I was being objective against you .
I take youre point for the second hand cloths , but with crossed wires thought you meant I use them.

Geoff

[gretgret]

The prices direct from the mill to the general public for a full size bed and cushion set including VAT are £171.55 for Smart and £235.78 for Match, there is a delivery charge of £17.63.

Hi Moglet,

I am in the process of trying to buy a Hainsworth Smart cloth to recover my full size bed and cushions. Where did you get your prices from, and where can I order direct from the mill please?

Many thanks,

Dave

[moglet]

Hi Dave,

http://www.cuesportscloth.co.uk/contactus.htm

Ask to speak to Diane Simpson and ask for it to be delivered on a tube rather than folded. At the time of that post those were the prices she gave me.

If the link doesn't work the phone number is:
01133955642

[DavisFan76]

You guys are all talking full-size, aren't you? Lucky sods, having enough room for one. Best I can manage is a 6ft, which is coming tomorrow. Still, it's a damn nice table and you can still have a damn good game on it!

[wayync]

Are the 6811 tournament cloths a huge difference from the 6811 club cloths? Would it really be worth spending more money for it?