Frustating table- help.

[Geoff Large]

The table looks like it is a Riley cushioned table with those extra broad bow pocket plates

these tables are notorious for spitting balls back onto the table or rattle in corner pocket openings .

yes tricks like cutting more rubber off or rasping slate falls in will slightly improve it unless you go really stupid and rasp a full 1 inch into the table off the falls .

I have come across this problem with these 1920s to 1260s Riley tables before , and the only rectifying result is to change the cushions I'm afraid

like this one , where my client was over the moon with the result of a set of second hand Burroughs and watts steel cushions .

http://gclbilliards.com/replace-stan...-leg-in-derby/

But even these Burroughs and watts cushions have their faults which is the middle plate you can get bounce back off the rear of the plate back onto the table .

the solution is to fit a set of Modern Riley Aristocrat standard cushions .

here are some tables i have worked on that are old tables but have at some point in their life had had modern replacement cushions fitted to them .

http://gclbilliards.com/bloxwich-nea...-napped-cloth/

http://gclbilliards.com/five-full-si...y-de-la-zouch/

NEW cushions replacements are going to be costly , but with many full size modern tables even being recycled nowadays it is possible to pick up a set of second had modern cushions that you could plug and re-drill to fit your table , a second hand set normally can be picked up for around £200 to £300 , but will require some work to be able to fit your table .

a new set from £8000 to £1600 depending on what type steel or normal plus labour and pocket plates .

it may be best just to buy a modern table and replace , rather than try and make a transition table .

by transition I mean Billiards was used as the main game until the 1930s when your design of table was being produced right up to the 1960s
so it is a transition Billiards snooker table .

modern tables are made to conform to the modern game of snooker which is what you are requiring on your table , those transition pocket openings will not take balls at speed ,
and the modern game is power shot speed based rather than billiards just stroke a ball around the table .

[Geoff Large]

not 1260 but 1960 ...will not, let me in to edit

[Sea Chief]

Hi Geoff,

very grateful for this reply. All of that makes sense to me. Alas we can't (that's me alone) afford new replacements, or even 2nd hand ones @ £250 will need fitting so another £200, just not possible.

So if we're left with these cushions, is there no way they can be rejigged at all then? if not Im at a loss as to A) why both BCE & Absolute didn't say any of this whatsoever but contrarily said 'all can-do no probs' & we've spent many hundreds on the table over 20 yrs, & B) what exactly -is- the difference in cushions?

[Sea Chief]

Riley 'Arrowflite cushions' it says on a plate under the table btw. presumably old billiards ones.

[Geoff Large]

The problem is they have been opened up to their limit you will be hitting wood at the rear just before the leather starts .

you have many tables made in this period where you can get 3.5/8th at the fall but only a maximum of 3 inch at the rear .

the pocket plate and the wood cushion Length dictates the problem here

you could get as many fitters as you like all with differnat opinions , yes you can open them up but this does not mean the ball will still leap back onto the table or be rejected .
Experience over the years opening up these type of tables has given me the right to say it just cannot be done , UNLESS you go stupid over the slate fall and bring it much further in so even a Bowling jack ball will fall in ....lol

I have seen cut down cushions and new pocket plates but going down that route the job always looks messy and the second hand cushions is a better and lower cost option .

I'm afraid I stand by my findings of new or second hand cushions .

ARROW FLITE is a re-rubber plate just to say arrow flite design rubber cushions had been used , but in those days all billiards firms named their re-rubbered cushions , like Elston and Hopkin where named Empire match cushion , in reality it was all Northern rubber used but named by the firms as their own design or branding .

[DeanH]

a new set from £8000 to £1600 depending on what type steel or normal plus labour and pocket plates .

do you mean £800 to £1600?

[Sea Chief]

But as you can see Geoff in my pic above, twds the leather backs, there is still 1/4" of cushion here (in fact after the trim we had these remain pretty much if not the same as they were).

The ball though, doesn't hit actually on or near this point anyway does it?

I just can't see why, if the bounce nature of the cushions has been dismissed as being cause (is this one of the problems? I don't know) leaving -solely- the cushion curve shape &/ or cushion relief as being the issue (s).. why in principle it can't be solved by fettling.

I also can't find any difference in the curve to our local hall tables. Therefore, Im back at the position of thinking -through layman's logic I'd freely admit- that this boils down to the relief shape of the cushion as to the cuase of the prob/ the difference to say our hall tables' cushions. But even so.. I can't see any great disparity.

If only I knew the reason.

[Sea Chief]

Dean- this is where we need that 3-image diagram of the cushion profiles I sent: any chance of getting that up?

[Geoff Large]

do you mean £800 to £1600?

yes key board is playing up .

[Sea Chief]

Geoff- Im trying to find out what is the difference between a new set of cushions, & the ones we might have. Apart from the obvious answer of 'yours billiards, new ones snooker'.. &/ or 'new ones will make the balls plays better/ drop well'. I'm trying to understand the tangible difference.

What I mean is -why- ours are not playing properly after the work we've paid to have them done, for eg why when I trace a template it matches the hall pockets now (actually ours a bit wider) both in curve & cushion relief.

There has to be an answer.

[Geoff Large]

Most Modern tables have a 1 and 7/8th overhang block to nose of cushion from edge of slate ,

older cushions will be 2 inch , already a shot down the cushion is 1/8th closer to the fall , and 1/4 inch more closer from the start of the radius when viewed from front of openings as 1/8th each side less overhang .

try measuring some modern table overhang of cushions from edge of slate to see what I mean , then measure old cushions .

unless they have been re-blocked and rubbered you will still have the old 2 inch blocks on .

your pocket openings close very quickly after the fall ,even though they may have been opened they will close , this will be the main reason for ball rattles and not accepting the ball .

over the years from thin depth capped cushions and top plates , tweaking of cushion capping depth and overhang of cushion block and rubber , the pocket plates being positioned further back on the thicker capping ,

the pocket plates are smaller than most modern tables , measure the length of a side cushion on your table then measure a modern one , even a 1/4 inch less off an end and 1/8 off side cushion + larger radius pocket plates to bridge a large opening , this means more rubber to cut back when opening at the rear , your pockets are small radius plates .
to alter the length put differnat pocket plate son , put smaller overhang blocks on re-rubber , that is a lot of work that in my opinion is not the way to go , NEW or S/H modern cushions and plates is the way to go .

All faults above combine to making older tables more restrictive for ball to go in .

the only work you have had done is open them up at the front more so than the back because of restrictive woodwork , and the slate fall rasped in .

Modern cushions is the only way to rectify this problem as rebuilding your old cushions is far more troublesome and in the long run more expensive than finding a second hand set of cushions .

there are plenty of Riley Regis tables around being scrapped or recycled , if you could get a set of these or the slide in panel aristocrat standard wood cushions off a table then that would be my recommendation .
i have just got a set of S/H modern cushions that came off a 1950s table but have allocated them already for a job value of cushions S?H as they are is £250 , these where made by Briggs of sheffield in the 1990's , they had large scooped faced pocket plates extra extra broad bow like BCE plates .

I'm afraid the club is going to have to spend to get the new cushions or just leave it as it is .
that is the only choice you have unless you want to waste more money trying to fettle those openings , that will never play the same as a proper modern set .

that is all I am am going to say on the subject , that,s my opinion and advice .

I have been fitting for 41 years so I have seen a few tables like this and peoples attempts to make them take balls .
I have been through the same process when I was younger , and after many attempts to try and make modern openings from these tight Riley tables that where really designed in the 1920's and not altered even up to 1960's, replacement cushions and plates is the way to go for the modern game .

Tables did not realy start to get to modern standards until BCE came out with the extra extra broad bows and square backed center plates with wide capping , from then onward tables slowly came up to modern spec and the Rubber blocks where reduced in overhang by 1/8th allowing for balls to go down a cushion and pocket with ease .

[Sea Chief]

Ok Geoff thanks so much for the advice. I understand most of it albeit still the difference, within the jaws, is elusive to me if as I say I trace a hall tables' jaws & they seem to match ours.

Its not a club here, its just a table in a village hall (has its own room).. that barely has got used in 20 years.

Do you think the fitter, & indeed the older BCE rep chap, both undoubtadly having decades of experience.. should have been more honest tho if it is, in your opinion, inherrantly un-rectifiable being a billiards table?

Its only a week ago after lord knows how much time Ive spent on research, that s'one told me (Terry) the bare fact that it is an old billiards table, hence the basis of the problems.

Why wouldn't Absolute say this, & be honest, & advise that it cannot be recitied?? £120 seems to have been totally wasted, let alone a huge ammount of time & effort by myself. I, annoyed about this after reading your very helpful info tbh.

[Geoff Large]

All tables are Billiard tables

in fact there is no such thing as a snooker table , and we are billiard fitters who work on them .

Snooker is a game played on a billiard table not the other way a round .
ignore English dictionaries when they describe a snooker table there is not such thing .

as I said the evolution of the older tables made before 1895 where top plate comers , after this date the first significant change began , the evolution of the hidden concealed pocket plate fixings

then greater depth of wood capping and placement of pocket plates further back .

differant types of pocket plates from normal two pin fixings to bolt pin fixings and extra extra broad bow with scalloped face to deflect the ball downwards .

as you can see the object in the evolution is to make the ball go down easier

with modern tables having the overhang reduced this makes the ball easier to go down the openings from the most tightest of angles down the cushion .

all slate falls should be around 3.5 inch radius , opening at the fall the same a round 3.5 inch , the opening to close to 3.5 inch and stay the same or open back up as you enter the pocket and to the leather .

your table was made from early 1900's to 1960's , that table is made to the specs of that time period and cannot because of pocket plate size and cushion length and overhang measurements play the same as a modern Riley Aristocrat , a karnhem and hillman , a modern thurston or a star or BCE tables with or without steel cushions , to name just a few .

you have to get to 1980's specs onward to see a difference .

no matter how you are thinking in your head about openings being the same the other characters that i have described are not there .

for instance you can have a modern table with two pin plated pocket plates and an identical table with scalloped pocket plates with wide leathers as used on TV , which one is going to accept a ball better when rammed in at speed ?

the combination of 2 inch over hang and 1.7/8ths may not seem much but they are massive difference to how a ball enter the opening .

you are playing on a joe Davies era table which belive it or not the pocket size in his day was 3.1/4 inch at the fall . , and not a Jimmy white era table .

so if your table was originally made in joe Davies era and at 3.1/4 inch at the fall , then the gap required at the rear of the opening would not have to be great , and the pocket plates are kept compact and small and do not go back as far .

Fitters gain experience through time , my views 20 years ago may not be the same as they are now and I may well have informed you yes open them up and it will solve the problem , experience gained and feed back from clients have changed my views over the years , there has never been a true saying than you NEVER STOP LEARNING , differant people have differant views , i would have informed you just from seeing a photo of the table the pitfalls of opening up and the solution of fitting modern cushions .
Given you a choice so you would not waste your money going down the route of opening up only to be disappointed .

As a village hall you may be entitled to a lottery Grant , I have seen and worked on tables that have had these grants in the past .

This place is a church hall with three tables that where accepted for a lottery grant to renovate all three tables and this also included replacement cushions to modern spec , these tables are all over 100 years old but have modern cushions on .

link here http://gclbilliards.com/bloxwich-nea...-napped-cloth/

[Sea Chief]

Thanks again |Geoff I really appreciate your time to try & explain to me.

I thought billiards cushions had less overhang than snkr, the wood block below going down vertically not angled?

I wish we could get this cushion profile pic up. It shows 3 different profile eg's whereby the rubber 1/2" face lets call it, is at different angles. The one that's most acute, the one with the most 'cutback' of this 1/2" face.. shows the ball is closer in to the pocket.. & the toppermost part of ball only in contact with this cushion 'lip'. I cannot see anything, from a basic physics pov, that tells me this A) isn't seemingly re-creatable by some simple fettling of the jaw rubber & B) won't lessen the bounce effect of the jaws.

It just has to be more of a 'funnel' effect. Surely if this could be done, even if an exxagerated 'sharp' top is achieved of the 1/2" face, then it will have the effect if not of facilitating the ball into the pocket somewhat instead of negating the ball to drop.. then of at the least deadening the jaws so the ball might not 'rattle', & thereby fall instead.

Again if anyone can help, please, by adding this image I'm talking about th the thread.. I'd be SOOOOOO greatful. its so frustratong trying to describe it.

[Sea Chief]

Can anyone tell me how to add a pdf into a reply??