Table make

[Pktotten]

Hi. Can anyone tell me what make this table is. It had a Burroughes and Watts badge at one end and an Orme and sons badge at the other. The club has had it since 1922. There are a few different stories about the origin of the table from older members.

[100-uper]

That's a really interesting table. I've never seen an Orme table with 'tulip' legs. This feature, with the rectangular recess above, is typical of Burroughes & Watts, and had I seen this table without the makers' plates I wouldn't hesitate to say it was one of theirs, probably mid to late 1880s. However, neither of the plates on the cushions correspond with this date. I would say that the Orme plate was the older of the two, about 1900, which brings into question whether the frame and the cushions started life together, as the B&W plate cannot possibly be as early as the 1880s. I can't answer this question from the photos supplied, and it might not be possible to tell without taking the table apart. Geoff Large may be able to spot something I have missed.

[DeanH]

100-uper beat me to posting, here is what I was putting together



Nice old table
Is the date of 1922 fixed or anecdotal? Club-gossip is renowned for exaggeration and inaccuracies
I would say that the table is older than 1922, more likely in the region of 1890s; the exposed pocket-plates and bolt-holes (missing the caps), and the leg design points to this time period; the table was probably purchased second-hand or donated to the club in 1922.
The make of table is tricky as many makers did a tulip-leg very similar but there is a Cox & Yeman table that is very-very close to this one along with the rectangular recesses.
There is a Burroughes & Watts model that is similar with rectangular recesses as well but to me the leg has slightly different proportions to your profile. B&W took over C&Y in 1911, again possibly indicating a date older than 1922.
I have not found any Orme & Sons table similar.
Cushions were often changed on tables through the years, especially during the 1890-1930s period, as new designs and constructions came about. Exposed pocket-plates faded from use soon after 1900 onwards in preference to hidden "invisible" pocket-plates.
"Low", "Vacuum", "Cold Resistant" where terms used to promote some of these new designs, so often an old table got new-fangled cushions added later
The two plates of makers of cushions on one table confuses the history; my guess is that the original (C&Y? ) cushions were replaced by one maker and then again by the other but all before the 1922 due to the pocket plates unless your club history has any notes on this
Orme & Sons became limited in 1896 so the plate can't be earlier than that.
Anyone know what the white "W" in the black circle relates to on the B&W plate?
Which make of cushion you have now, hard for me to say, I await further posts from others to read their views

[DeanH]

100-uper - do you have any information on the Orme & Sons cushions? "The O.S. Mark II (2) cushion" as per the cushion plate on the table above. I have seen a plate with "No 12 cushion" from Orme & Sons circa 1928, so a "Mark 2" could be much earlier

[Pktotten]

Thanks for looking into this for me. The club got the table second hand in 1922. There are different stories argue about where it came from and if it came into the country (Northern Ireland) with another that either went to an estate in Fermanagh or went to a gaa club in the village. The table had to be taken down recently as the rooms wooden floor needed replacing with concrete. It was the 1st time since 1922 that the table had been moved. There was no other name plates on the frame. The man who moved the table for us thinks a badge may have been replaced.

[100-uper]

100-uper - do you have any information on the Orme & Sons cushions? "The O.S. Mark II (2) cushion" as per the cushion plate on the table above. I have seen a plate with "No 12 cushion" from Orme & Sons circa 1928, so a "Mark 2" could be much earlier

I haven't seen any advert for the 'Mark II' cushion which would put a date on its use, but I can estimate the date of the plate by other information. Orme became a limited company in 1894, when they also opened their Glasgow showrooms, both events being mentioned on the plate. Also, you rarely see any table plate with a sans-serif font before the late 1890's, and more commonly into the 1900s.

In their 1902 catalogue, Orme state that ALL their tables are fitted with invisible pocket plates, which these are clearly not. So, IF the cushion and Orme plate belong together, it must date from the late 1890s, which would still be very late for a top-mounted pocket plate, even at the bottom end of the market. This is what makes me suspect that the cushion pre-dates both the plates.

[DeanH]

Thanks for the information
Limited 1894 not 1896 - found that after posting, seems to have been late 94 - circa Sep/Oct, definitely in November
Interesting about the fonts.
cheers


edit - as soon as I posted I find other LTD in July 1894

[100-uper]

Thanks for the information
Limited 1894 not 1896 - found that after posting, seems to have been late 94 - circa Sep/Oct, definitely in November
Interesting about the fonts.
cheers


edit - as soon as I posted I find other LTD in July 1894

I can pin that down even more precicely, Orme and Sons Limited were registered on 19th June 1894. [Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser - Monday 25 June 1894 p.4]

[DeanH]

you never disappoint
I was on page 3

[Pktotten]

Hi, Would any more photos help?

[100-uper]

Orme did have a special feature on their O.S. cushions which involved the use of a metal ribbon to secure the cushion cloth rather than the more traditional slot cut into the cushion rail which took a wooden slat. If the cushions have been recovered in recent history the fitter will know whether the table has this feature. I don't know whether this can be seen without taking off the cushion cloth. Geoff Large would know.

[inevermissblue]

All I know is that it's steel block. So very nice!