Table maintenance

[bricktip]

Hi All,
This is quite an old thread, so i suppose it's ok to add my question as it is sort of maintenance.

As you may already know from other threads, i've just had my table installed. But, it's not running as level as i would like. So, I was wondering if it's possible to do further levelling work now the table is complete with cloth and everything? For example, when playing a slow shot from the yellow pocket to the black pocket (diagonal), the ball runs off to the left instead of going in the pocket.

[Geoff Large]

Where is youre Experienced Fitter Friend who took over and installed the table for you ? , it should be an easy adjustment for him to level it , and yes of course you can level a table once it has been put up , with it having adjustable centre muntings there should be no sag in the slates .
I am curious to what sort of job has been done to the table when fitting , post some close up photo,s of the corner and middle slate falls down the pockets , also a close up photo of how the cloth has been attached to the slate linings .
After youre questions on the other thread asking are all the legs on the floor , I am guessing who ever leveled the table is no EXPERIENCED BILLIARDS FITTER , youve posted two questions in differant threads , but they are both related questions in the level of the table , one on legs not touching the floor and this thread can a table be adjusted for level ?
It is very obvious that you are now having trouble with balls running untrue on youre table , and when you first wrote about youre table you said you was putting it together , after a few people advised you that it would be best to have a qualified fitter do the job , you stated that you had now had Experienced fitter Friend finish the work off , how far down the road had you got when you called the fitter in ?
If the fitter leveled the table , then I am afraid from youre obvious disatisfaction in the table roll off , you are not pleased , my advice to you is Get an experienced fitter to come and look at the table (not the fitter or person who has not got it level) , it maybe that a complete strip down and replane the frame true is required , or a simple level , by youre own observations that the table creaks , this tells me that the frame is not sitting sqaure to the floor and more importantley the slates , which are pressing down on the frame and reforming its supporting frame side beams like a serpants back . Iv'e seen this done many times , and if this is the case then it will now cost more to put it right than it would of to get a billiards fitter to fit it from scratch the first time .

I may sound as if I am coming a bit strong with my findings here , but from the first post of wanting advice on how to put the table together , to now how do you level it and how to get the table to not creak ? you should have got it level before the bed cloth went on , it is far easier to level the table when you can see things like slate joints , sometimes it just maybe you got the roll out but now a slate joint has shifted or opened up .
i find it very strange that after an experienced fitter has put his input into the build that you are having basic problems of frame creaking and balls rolling out of true , this all points to a bad build up of the table , BCE are not known for creaking frames , they are well bolted at joints and have those adjustable muntings to support slate sag , i am sure the other fitters on here will agree with my findings having read youre posts from day one .

Geoff

[bricktip]

Image1 (1).jpgmiddle pocket.jpgHi Geoff
Legs are solid when kicking them. See pics attached for your curiosity. He is going to come again and look at the levels and i'll mention the occasional creaking, as you said perhaps the frame bolts need a bit of tightening, although i tightened them as much as i dared without splitting the wood.

[Geoff Large]

Right from those two photo's I can tell you he is no Billiards fitter , he has stapled the cloth on , a snooker table should have its bed cloth tacked on to allow simple flicking out of the5/8th tacks to restretch at a later date , an Experienced fitter would only have been taught to tack a cloth on , American pool cloths are stapled on as they do not get stretched .
The centre pocket fall , he has not stretched it correctley , a large V shape is not the way to fit the cloth , it should be smooth with no V cutt out filled in like in this photo .
This is why I asked to see the cloth at the falls especialy the centre slate falls as this is the most difficult angle to get right when fitting a cloth .
I am now not surprised that the table is not level , has he recovered the cushions ? if so any wrinkles in the undercut part of the cushion ?
is there any large washers on the leg bolts , also being a BCE the cushion bolts should have a square plate washer that is slotted with an extra washer too .
If you look at a table that has had it's cloth fitted correctly you will soon see that youre tables fitted cloth is not good , a billiards fitter always puts the centre pocket falls down and then stretched all 4 corners to pull wrinkles out , an american pool table fitter puts the cloth on all 6 sides; then puts thecentre and corner fall down later , the exact opposite of a snooker table , he has tried useing his american pool skills on a Snooker table .

I am gratefull for you putting the photo's up as this will I hope inform other people that there is a right way and a wrong way to fit cloths , my main pc is down at the moment due to a bad virus and I am useing a pc note book , when I get the pc back I will post a photo of the correct photo of a correctely fitted cloth at the fall .

Geoff

[bricktip]

The cushions were recovered by 147sport.com in Leeds, so we just had to bolt them on and make sure they were lined up correctly so the pocket openings are all the same size. The leg bolts have two washers - a plain washer and a spring washer, although some of them wouldn't tighten up enough for the decorative panel to sit flush on the leg, and i was afraid to split the wood by over tightening. Perhaps you could advise on that from experience? I did watch him do the cloth, and he did the center pockets first.

[Geoff Large]

From the photo;s of the slate falls he has no clue how to fit the cloth to an acceptable standard , the V shape tear that has had a piece of cloth put under it to hide it on the centre slate fall is one of the worst that I have seen ,
I am afraid to sort any problems out you will require a qualified time served fitter on site , advising any work to rectify by descriptions and photo.s is not going to help much , it requires hands on work by qualified Billiards fitter .

Geoff

[bricktip]

Unfortunately, I'm not in the best location for a properly qualified time served fitter of the high standard that you or I would expect, so I have to make do with the guys here, unless I pay for someone to come over from the UK. Far from ideal, but that's the fact. Regarding the centre pocket - He didn't tear it, but cut the V out with scissors, and I told him to put the V on as it was just exposed slate which looked worse and there would also be the possiblility for balls to bounce into the slate and damage them. Looks wise, i suppose i could tidy that up better than he did it, as i have some offcuts of cloth left over.

I appreciate your input, and i think these threads will be useful information for others on here.

[Geoff Large]

Yes I see youre flag of location and also apreciate that you have to go on costs to get the table up and running , the guy prob did his best , but to me it is plain to see that he has only recovered pool tables in the past and just the odd Billiard Table which he is trying to cover like a pool table .
I was once instructed to oversee a Polish guy here in the Uk who had told the firm he was a qualified Billiards fitter , he did not have a clue on how to level the table or fit the bed cloth , when I sprinkled the tacks on the bed coth , he pointed to my van tyres as he could not speak english , 10 mins later i got what he was on about , he wanted an air compresser and staple gun to put the cloth on , although he was trying his best unless he was retrained he would not survive here in the Uk , and i guess that is an acceptable level of skill in Poland .

Geoff

[Geoff Large]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8542[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]8543[/ATTACH]Hi Geoff
Legs are solid when kicking them. See pics attached for your curiosity. He is going to come again and look at the levels and i'll mention the occasional creaking, as you said perhaps the frame bolts need a bit of tightening, although i tightened them as much as i dared without splitting the wood.

The slate falls should be something like this .
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/...sPhotos258.jpg

[bricktip]

That looks nice. My "fitter friend" is coming back tomorrow, so hopefully I wiill be happier with the table as a result.

Geoff, can you offer any advice for tweaking the levels on the table with the cloth on? I know it's a difficult thing to advise not having been involved in the initial fitting, but your comments are appreciated. You never know, i could ask you to come and sort it out properly if all else fails.

Here are the issues with the levels.
Yellow/Green/Brown spot to opposite middle pockets is pulling to baulk when playing dead weight.
Yellow spot to opposite black pocket pulling less so, but still noticeable
Bulk cushion going in and out of cushion when playing dead weight along the rail.
Other rails seem ok when playing dead weight along them.
Pink spot to both middle pockets ok.
black spot to both black corners ok

I'm writing this from memory, but can me more specific if you would like me to play some specific test shots this evening.

Re: legs (again)
Last night i went round and banged the legs with my hand, and although not floating, some of them are creaking or moving very slightly. From memory, i think it was the four outside legs, which would suggest that the packing is a bit too high on the inner 4 legs. I'm wondering if it's worth trying to tighten the leg bolts a bit if i can get anything on them. Perhaps i could also put some metal corner brackets inside if the creaking still persists after tomorrow?

[Geoff Large]

I could only advise on leveling if my engineers level was on the table , i always work to this , if a ball is rolling off on the baulk cushion as you say when playing along it like in then out then in etc , sometimes if a slate is not cleaned off porperly on the install , the crushed chalk dust that has acumulated over the years under the old cloth at each end of the table tend to gather just under the nose of the rubber , when a ball hits the rubber equal force is also transfered to the base of the ball , this tends to vibrate chalk dust Especialy at the end cushions into globlets or hard lumps , a good sanding down of the slate will remove this compacted chalk dust , another reason maybe the cloth has a strong nap and the slate is sloping towards the end cushion , as the ball runs along this cushion the nap is trying to run it away from the cuushion yet the slope to the cushion is forceing it back and you get the wavy in out pattern you are describing .

Sometimes strong napped cloth will also run a ball out of true especialy when playing against the nap or diagonal across the nap say from yellow baulk to diagonal end pocket at spot end slowly .

Warped slates are another avenue you may want to explore , if a ball down each side runs towards the middle yet a ball down the spots stays true then you have dished slates , because youre frame has inner adjustable muntings ( slate supports ) this can be adjusted out BUT do it over a week not overnight , slightly twist each bolt a quarter turn , you will of course have to have an engineers level to get youre table anywhere near true not a builders level .

like this 18 inch one on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Ra...item2310984ba4

or 12 inch http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STARRETT-E...item1c1f80941d

you can get them at a lower price than that . you just have to wait for them to apear on there . there is a 8 inch one at £25 on there but I recomend the 12 inch as a good one .

You have to get the frame sitting solid and true and level before the slates go on it , then put the slates on and adjust for fine level , what you are now attempting is to level a table on a frame that was not level or solid to start with .

[bricktip]

He did use a disc sander to go over the slates after doing the filler, and i went round and checked it, so i don't think it's the chalk thing on the baulk cushion. The cloth is WOE 6811 gold, and i've brushed, blocked and ironed it a few times to try and help (it was creased from being folded), although getting under the baulk cushion is not as effective as doing the rest of the cloth as it's difficult to get to without the risk of burning something. Btw, i have a dowsings thermostatic iron.

He does have an expensive level that he said cost about 300 euros, but i can't remember what it is. It certainly looked the business and was about 12 inches.

[Geoff Large]

If he used a power disc sander then I'm afraid he may have put low spots in the slate , some fitters use Car body filler in the joints others use Plaster of paris , I use both depending on type of table condition of joints etc ,but the car body filler has to be EASY SAND , and always use a wood sanding block and sand paper not a power sander .

Did he use the power disc sander on the Joints ?

Joints can sometimes be a problem especialy if chinese or low quality slate , sometimes a playing card has to be used to adjust the lip out of the joint , placed between slate and frame , now on a perfect frame and perfect floated slates NOTHING should be between slate and frame , It,s bad fitters who make a mess of a perectley good table this way , they cannot get the joints right so turn to a belt or disc sander to sand them in , the trade has changed over the years from a pair of fitters who took a table out on a van and assembled the table and took all day at it , to the speed merchant fitters who go on low prices and speed to get as much done in a day as posiible i call them the HIT AND RUN SQUAD .
and it is something that realy gets my back up , following these cowboys around and trying to put right what they have ruined .

an example is someone had took a sander to a set of slates to blend the joints in , sanding the high lip from one side of the joint so that it did not show through the cloth , 2 years later the client moves house , we take the table down and point out that someone has butchered the slate joints , when the table goes back up level , the joints are now looking bad , the high point that the cowboy sanded out is now a low point which has to be filled and feathered in by hand sanding , or if to be fully cured the entire set of slates refloated which is expensive .

bricktip , I'm afraid the pople who have been let loose on youre table have prob done some damage , and describing ball run offs and now disc sanding of slate proves to me that the table has now been damaged , the creaking you can get out by tightening the frame bolts , No L shape brackets under the frame please you should not have to fit anything like these to a table , the 10ft BCE in london did have a few bolts loose in the frame which I tightend up . I tried to get some movement out of the leg joints but no creaking could be heard .

If you have any photo's of the fitter useing this disc sander please post them , you realy should have youre own level and jack kit plus a few shims being as you are far from the uk , rabone and chesterman levels can sometimes come up on ebay for under £30 , check also for metal level or just spirit levels as many do not know they are engineers levels it may be that Grandads tools in the shed have to go and they just list them as a job lot or describe the level as just a level , they must look like the ones I posted links to though , always adjust the level by jacking up the side frame only NEVER the ends or middle sections under the table .


Now go on the table and slowly roll a ball over the lenth of the joints ,if i am a betting man i'd say they deflect all over the place on the high and low spots he has created with the disc sander . or a shallow trench ? my hunch was correct over they way the cloth had been fitted to those slate falls , so maybe i'm right about the joints .
Geoff

[bricktip]

He used a disc sander but only on the bits that were filled to get them flush. He used body filler. It's worth noting that the slates are already 24 years old and are Gioffra, so they are probably not perfect because of the age and i dont know the history of the table, whether it's been moved much etc. Quite a bit of filler was needed on some of the joints due to chips. He used small wooden wedges between slate and frame to get the joints level, although this was very a very minute amount it has to be said. Sanding was not done to correct slate levels as you talk about. I'm happy with the slate joints.

Re: final paragraph
I'll go and try that and get back to you, if i can figure out exactly where the joints are. I suppose i can look underneath to find them and then try and follow it up to the bed.

[bricktip]

just tried it, and the ball is wondering off course quite badly, although to be fair it's doing it in places where there isn't a slate joint as well.