Rail-embedded scorekeeping devices

[TheStranger]

At several pool halls out here in California, I've noticed older (and some newer) tables with dial-operated score devices, like the ones here, usually implanted in the bottom (baulk) rail:

http://billiards.about.com/od/specia..._04counter.htm

While rarely used today by the 9-ball/8-ball playing population, they served as great trackers in straight pool.

What I'm wondering is - has this ever been done for snooker tables? This would seem to be extremely useful, as long as a third digit for centuries was implemented (for that matter, that would be great for billiards as well). There could be several sets of dials, resembling the graphical score tickers we see on TV:

(frame score) (break) (frames won) (total frames to play to) (opponent's frames won) (opponent's break score) (opponent's frame score)

[Robert602]

Every snooker club I've been to has traditional wall-mounted sliding scoreboards (sometimes mounted on/near the lampshade), but I do know of one table in our university union building that something very similar to what you're talking about.

I can't remember exactly what it looks like but as far as I know it's quite an old table, probably built with billiards in mind rather than snooker.

I suppose either way works well enough, but I wouldn't be keen on my opponent standing at the table (in the light) scoring while I'm on a break.

Interesting to read in that article that they used to use strings with sliding markers. Have you ever seen one of those? Seems like a cumbersome way to do it when a snooker style scoreboard would presumably do the job and be almost as cheap/low-tech.

[TheStranger]

I suppose either way works well enough, but I wouldn't be keen on my opponent standing at the table (in the light) scoring while I'm on a break.

I'd think it'd be most useful to not adjust the dials during the break, but after the break is done (before the next player's turn, but after your own), in which case my idea for having a break counter is moot.

Interesting to read in that article that they used to use strings with sliding markers. Have you ever seen one of those? Seems like a cumbersome way to do it when a snooker style scoreboard would presumably do the job and be almost as cheap/low-tech.

I know of several places that presently have those hanging string-markers, one of them is Jointed Cue in south Sacramento which has them above all tables, both the carom ones and the American pool tables. I've seen it elsewhere and I agree that it isn't a particularly easy setup to use - however, when tables are present at the middle of the floor, away from a wall where a snooker-style scoreboard could be mounted, I can understand why this is used.

One issue with the in-table scorekeeping devices that is present at Jointed Cue (but not necessarily elsewhere) is that older ones start getting "sticky" and not rolling out to the correct digits, sometimes with the tens and ones digits stuck to each other. Another problem appeared at the Hard Times location in an unincorporated part of the county (Foothill Farms) - the counter digits start wearing off after years of use.

[Wity]

Interesting to read in that article that they used to use strings with sliding markers. Have you ever seen one of those?

Robert you must be the only cueist in the UK whose never seen Paul Newman in The Hustler

[Robert602]

I've seen it a few times Wity. Now that you mention it I do remember Jackie Gleason reaching up with his cue to put a score up, never thought much of it before.

Still never seen one in person though, and the Hustler was set and made quite a while ago.

(And since you bring it up - I always thought it was interesting that in one of the shots in that film you can see a window sign in a club that says 'Pool & Snooker'. Snooker in the US before it was even big in the UK?)

[Wity]

I'll be honest, it was not until this last week that i've been thinking of trying straight pool and somewhere online reading the rules and such the string scoring thingy was mentioned along with the 1961 film and I thought bloody hell thats what he was doing with his stick in the air then!

I thought he was trying to mess around with the lightbulb for the last 47 years

[Wity]

Cant remember the snooker sign but look what i've just found...



That's a 3/4 cue surely ?

[100-uper]

At several pool halls out here in California, I've noticed older (and some newer) tables with dial-operated score devices, like the ones here, usually implanted in the bottom (baulk) rail:

http://billiards.about.com/od/specia..._04counter.htm

While rarely used today by the 9-ball/8-ball playing population, they served as great trackers in straight pool.

What I'm wondering is - has this ever been done for snooker tables? This would seem to be extremely useful, as long as a third digit for centuries was implemented (for that matter, that would be great for billiards as well). There could be several sets of dials, resembling the graphical score tickers we see on TV:

(frame score) (break) (frames won) (total frames to play to) (opponent's frames won) (opponent's break score) (opponent's frame score)

This type of inset marker has never been used on English Billiard tables, at least, not in standard designs. However in the latter part of the 19th century there was another type of marker available which could be mounted onto a cushion rail. These were also sold as hand-held markers mounted on a paddle of wood and they are more commonly seen in this form.

As far as I can tell these originated in Continental Europe where they played the cannon game (one point per cannon) and were apparently frequently seen attached to a carom table where there was no wall close-by where a board could be mounted. This has never been a problem with an English 12 foot table where you would need a pretty big room to find no adjacent wall, and consequently they were never particularly popular. The Burroughes & Watts catalogue for 1885 clearly describes this type of fitting as being "for fixing on table" so clearly this was being done at this time, although I have never seen a surviving example.

[Robert602]

Informative as ever, thanks. That device looks closer to what I've seen on the union table. I'll take a picture next time I'm there (might be a while) if it's of any interest to you.

[TheStranger]

Thanks for the info, 100-uper - now what I'm wondering is, since I don't see an obvious "dial" to adjust by fingers to up the scores, is it by button pressing or something?

The carom billiards hall near my house has an interesting wall-mounted cabinet version of the "hanging strings with counters" though instead the counters are along several sets of round wooden rails, not unlike an abacus.

[100-uper]

What appear to be "buttons" on the side of the picture are actually spring loaded levers which advance the numbers on either side.

The "abacus" scoring string is entirely foreign to the English game, although I understand it is common in the USA.

[ryanah147]

I have come accross a table with the `scoreboard`embedded in the baulk end cushion. It was a very old `4 slater`Burroughes & Watts full size 12x6ft table with 1" slates and 6 legs. Cushion rails very light, with top fitting brass`s. Dismantled it about 7 years ago and it hasnt seen the light of day since.

[Geoff Large]

I have worked on a few tables with the embeded billiard markers in the end cushions , I have noticed that they where all Burroughs and watts tables that had them , I have not come across any other make with these markers embeded in the cushions .
I have also seen a wall mounted clock type scoreboard for billiards with two clocks with a diameter of around 15 inch each , with a penny slot at the top , these will rotate one turn before another penny has to be put in .

[ryanah147]

Geoff, Speaking of the Billiards scoreboard with the 2 dials... In the club where I played as a young lad they had 2 of these boards. When the club got a bit of a makeover in the 1970s they decided to get rid of them as one was giving a bit of trouble. I got the 2 of them and I donated both to the Norman Clare Museum in Liverpool. One of them is featured in his Billiards Bygones book, and the other is hanging on the wall in the museum next to the Thurston Octagon Table with a little plaque `Donated by`...
I found your item of the fitter you worked with very funny, especially the one where he used to heat his feet on the iron on his way home from a job, not to mention `frying up`on the iron as well.

[Geoff Large]

There are not many of these two clock type wall hung boards around , I have seen only two in real life one at Nottingham Central firestation in good working order , and another at Gladstone liberal club in not so good working order and it had been revarnished .
I cannot remember where thay where made , but have a feeling they where made local to Nottinghamshire / Derbyshire area .
I have seen a couple for sale on ebay also that fetched around £250 each , I always fancied one myself to go with my 3/4 sized table , this 9ft x 4ft 6 in sized table used to belong to Eric clapton , and was sold to me by his ex wife Pattie boyd with antique revolving cue rack and letter of authentication that it used to to reside in Erics Italian designed country house Hurtwood Edge in Surrey .
You have to use youre imagination what was sniffed off the Cushion cappings and what went on, on the table in the 1960s and 70s :snooker:
Being a Clapton fan I could not afford one of his guitars which he sold to fund a Drug drink reabilitation centre called Crossroads in Antigua , but I got his Cue .
his table is a Palmer and Sons one so around the turn of the Century .