Fair ProAm Handicaps

[amt]

Hi,

at our recent ProAm the professionals gave an 18 start. To me this is over simplistic and doesn't seem particularly fair. I'd like some input from everyone, particularly any pros out there, and see if we can come up with something else for our future tournaments.

The problem is that if an average club member were playing John Higgins they would get an 18 start, but at the same time if Liam Highfield (top of PIOS) were playing David Roe (bottom of pro tour), Liam would also get an 18 start.

What about something more like...

top 32 pro tour give 24
rest of pro tour give 16
top 32 of PIOS give 8
everyone else off scratch

any thoughts? Has this been tried before? Is it too complicated?

Thanks
Anthony

[gazza147]

Too be Honest Anthony 18 Start is quite Good!

As you won't Find any of the Top Players Surely Not the Top 16 entering this ProAm?? Unless it is there Practice Club and Owner wants them there to Attract the Entries!!

As if you are above average Player and can make 40/50 in a Flash then Frame is Won......But if your a 100+ Breaker then 18 ahead is quite alot.

I know where I am in Wales most Players in Tournaments are Capable of 100+ so 18 Start is Good.....I would take 18 off Any of the Top Players!!

[Ballrun]

What I've come across in the past is that Main Tour Players give 21, PIOS Players give 14 and the rest is off scratch.
If you get a Main Tour Player or a PIOS player on there day, the start don't come into it really.
Its a hard one to call but this seems to be the norm in comps I've played in.
Hope this helps.

[amt]

thanks for your input gazza147,

I'm not actually expecting John Higgins to turn up to my club, however the rules should be fair, just in case he did Since the event I've had a couple of top 32 players saying they would be interested next time, even one top 16. At the recent ProAm Jimmy Robertson gave Alfie Burden an 18 start. Under the proposed system it would have been half that, and Alfie would have given everyone else a small handicap too.

The actual values of the handicaps and the idea of different levels of handicapping are two separate ideas. So what are your opinions on the latter?

Thanks
Anthony

[amt]

Thanks Ballrun,

yes that does help.

It seems to me that the ability level on the borderline between PIOS and Pro tour is too close to give one a -18 and the other scratch.

anyone else have an opinion?

Thanks
Anthony

[snooky147]

It's really difficult to implement a fair and balanced handicap system. When I was playing around 5 years ago I played a match against a guy who came to the club and was given a 60 handicap. I was on 30 at the time so I had to give him a 30 start but I knew I was never gonna win by the middle of the first frame when he was on 80 (all blacks by the way). He missed on 88 but it was obvious that his handicap was way off. Okay that example might be a bit on the extreme side but it's more difficult to balance a handicap than you think, especially when there are pro's playing because you obviously want to make it fair and not handicap the pro's so that they simply cannot win but then when you do you get accused of favoring them.......Sighs....Glad I am well out of all that now.

[JanieWatkins]

Trouble is there is a vast disparity of abilities on the PIOS

So I'd go with Stu's 21 for the MT Pros to give
and 14 for the Top 24/32 of the PIOS


everyone else off scratch.

Gaz - you should be giving everyone else 18, not receiving it, you bandit!

[amt]

Hi snooky147,

It's ok, I don't think it's easy, I wish it was!

A club member convinced me, against my better judgement, to hold a small handicapped knockout just before christmas and it was a total nightmare. We had to improvise handicaps as players turned up that we'd never met, it all got a bit random.

At least with ProAms we have a clear list of pros and PIOS players, so we have something to base the handicaps on.

From my perspective, the point of a handicap is just to encourage people to enter. As long as people perceive the handicap to be fair that's all that matters, that's why I'm asking for feedback.

Thanks
Anthony

[JanieWatkins]

Hi snooky147,

It's ok, I don't think it's easy, I wish it was!

A club member convinced me, against my better judgement, to hold a small handicapped knockout just before christmas and it was a total nightmare. We had to improvise handicaps as players turned up that we'd never met, it all got a bit random.

At least with ProAms we have a clear list of pros and PIOS players, so we have something to base the handicaps on.

From my perspective, the point of a handicap is just to encourage people to enter. As long as people perceive the handicap to be fair that's all that matters, that's why I'm asking for feedback.

Thanks
Anthony

for in club events, I'd suggest using the CueFactor handicapping system. It's an impartial system.

Back in my playing days in handicaps in the club, we used to get +5 or -5 for a win or a loss so in a season long league for instance, your handicap could go up and down according to current form and also the quality of the opposition.

[amt]

Hi Globalsnooker,

yeah that sounds reasonable, I don't want to make things too complicated after all, perhaps just two levels of handicaps would be simpler.

Thanks
Anthony

[amt]

Hi Globalsnooker,

re: cuefactor handicapping.

yes that sounds very interesting, I'll look more into it.

Thanks!
Anthony

[Souwester]

You're never going to win on handicapping, especially for one-off events.

I've not seen handicapping in any major national tournament for about 17 or 18 years, and then it was based on a self-declaration of highest break, so not totally reliable!

Handicaps perhaps work best within clubs or leagues, where players play regularly, and, over time, the handicaps sort themselves out relative to each other. But even in our league, where we've had handicapping in place for maybe 15 years now, the vast majority of players are inconsistent, and so there are frequently 'debates' (ok, heated arguments) because of the starts given, when one high handicapper has played well above his handicap that day, against a low handicapper who was playing below par.

[goldengirl]

I have always thought that any Tournament should be played off scratch - I haven't spoken to one snooker player who enjoys "starts" or "Handicaps".
The players getting the starts feel under pressure cos they're 14/21 points ahead and the player giving the start is under it because they are already behind. And at the end of the day if the gap is that wide 14/21 points is not going to make much of a difference.
That is how lesser players improve their game - by being beaten by better players. But I have found that playing on club tables - even the better maintained ones - are a great leveller on their own.
I remember on the Waistcoat if you mentioned a "start" to the younger players, just starting out ,they were horrified - they wanted to beat the top players fair & square - which sometimes happened.

[amt]

Hello Goldengirl,

I find when I discuss the idea of tournaments with my club players at least 90% want it to be handicapped. They know that they stand no chance of winning otherwise, and if they have no chance of winning they aren't interested. I think that's a bit sad really, but that's just the way it is. I wish everyone was like you and playing for the pleasure of the game, but that's not what I've seen at a club level. I promoted this recent ProAm heavily around the clubs in Brighton and we had FIVE players turn up. They all told me that they would not have a chance to win so wouldn't enter, and lets not forget that this was for charity too!

We originally intended it to be off scratch but after speaking to several very competent players we decided to give pros a -18 just to maximise the number of entries. Every amateur wanted a start, I'm surprised that you haven't had the same experience.

Thanks
Anthony

[magicman]

In my experience of running tournaments, most local players will only enter handicap events. To get a decent field for a scratch pro-am (well apart from pro's giving 14, 18, or 21) you have to expect people to travel from far flung places. If I was running pro-ams I'd keep it simple and have -10 for PIOS, -18 for pro's regardless of rank. For instance David Grace isn't in the top 32 on the PIOS at the moment but he's won the English Amateur twice, the European Open, The Open event at Prestatyn and had a year on the main tour.

If you want to run a regular h/cap competition then get advice from all the top local players on the standard of all your members/league players who will play in it. Contact the local league secretary and see if there is a league h'cap comp. Between them, they will know most of the players and any player you dont know start them on scratch in the 1st comp and readjust their h/cap from there. When I ran h/cap events I would take the winner down -10, R/up down -7, losing s/finalists -4, Q/F -2, and depending on entries 1st rd losers +4. This way, h/caps are constantly reappraised in a non-personal result driven manner. The better players want the kudos of being the lowest h/capper and any player has a guide to how their game is progressing during the season.

You can always try an autumn and spring scratch tournament or even just an annual club singles scratch and h/cap event but reward the scratch event disproportionally by maybe putting in a little club cash in the pot to encourage entries and to establish that event as the premier one.