Handicapping procedure Open / Handicap events

[Big Splash!]

Haha!

Yeah, I've heard one skipper say that they didn't want promotion because 2nd div was a better night out on a Friday and the div 2 teams drank more and ate kebabs. FFS, it's meant to be about snooker! The funny thing was the muppets got relegated back to div 2 and took up playing as badly as they had in div 1 quite seriously. Then sank to div 3! haha, they had to play on Wednesdays!

All this HC bollox is just taking the **** out of snooker and not respecting the game. I feel for ya man, you got them CWs in your club clattering about making a racket as well. Nightmare!

[Shockerz]

Haha!

Yeah, I've heard one skipper say that they didn't want promotion because 2nd div was a better night out on a Friday and the div 2 teams drank more and ate kebabs. FFS, it's meant to be about snooker! The funny thing was the muppets got relegated back to div 2 and took up playing as badly as they had in div 1 quite seriously. Then sank to div 3! haha, they had to play on Wednesdays!

All this HC bollox is just taking the **** out of snooker and not respecting the game. I feel for ya man, you got them CWs in your club clattering about making a racket as well. Nightmare!

I guess if I'm honest I don't mind handicap's as they are levelers for all standards so when I play in the handicap comps I like the battle as the odds are generally against me as the guys know to mess the colours up. We have a fair mix of scratch comps so high handicappers generally don't enter them.

I had a guy a couple of years ago that had a bandit handicap, messed the colours up and was rude with it so I wouldn't concede as he really got under my skin(best of 3). I needed 7 snookers with 2 reds left and I got all 7 to the amusement of the guys watching and then potted to the pink and lost the frame there. He couldn't pot a ball after that and won 2-1.

He moaned as I hadn't conceded so I told him I don't mind losing and would have conceded but I didn't like his comments to his mates that he's giving me a stuffin and I can't be that good, cheeky sod.

I had a few frames today and had a load of 30's, a 45 and and a 65 which is good for me nowadays but giving 50 odd starts to regular players that play the system as well is wrong really so I think a lot of handicap system fail with bad sports and whiners (and I don't mean everyone as I've also met some good sorts of all standards).

[itsnoteasy]

Yep ,good post Shockerz, I think handicaps are fine, it's those that abuse them that's wrong. Unfortunately you will always get them, the win at all cost type, personally I can't stand them, they are normally twonks away from the table as well.

[MrJSquishy]

Thanks for your feedback Shockerz.

I have personally been on the committee of my club for several years and have tried to implement a lot of what you mentioned i.e. coaching junior players, having schools play at the club as organised sports days, advertising (facebook and the local papers) but, the key component in the players leaving always seems to be around handicaps. The better players have left to go to areas where there is more competition (and non-handicapped snooker) and quite a few players have left due to arguments with opponents over handicaps.

Snooker in my area is very cheap (in fact our club is the only club that charges to use tables - and it's $1 for 45 minutes using light meters!), so reduced costs shouldn't be an issue.

I understand just how hard it is to get these numbers up, but, at the moment, due to a nearby club having their snooker room closed for renovations, we are regularly getting 16+ players every week. For us, that is very good. So, I'm hoping if I can get some feedback from players using a system like this, it would be a good time to implement it at our club. Make hay while the sun shines so to speak...

By the way, if anyone is interested in another handicap system that I read about which is totally different to mine as well, Google "Don Sitarski Aces snooker handicap". It is quite a different view again, but, a system that I think would be great with up and coming junior players especially.

Thanks again for your ideas. It's always good to have positive people around (even if it is hard work - I believe the game is worth it!)

Cheers

[MrJSquishy]

I think that this is a well thought out system, I've never heard of a handicap system before that doesn't encourage negative play, and this seems to do the trick.
However, some players will complain that it's unnecessarily complicated (although it isn't) and for some players, even with a calculator to hand they'd struggle to do the scores between them. It would need a referee who knows what he's doing for a lot of matches.
But, as a concept, it's an excellent idea.

Hi cantpotfor****e,

You hit the nail on the head re '...players will complain that it's unnecessarily complicated..." However, what I did was printed out cards with all the breaks from 1 to 100 and showed what they were worth to each player. So, each player simply had to look at their own card (with their percentage handicap on it) after they made a break and find the break they just made. Their 'adjusted' break was below it. This made it easier to trial. And after 1 to 2 frames playing nearly everybody said, "It was very easy to understand."

Again though, I simply didn't have a broad enough range of players to really give it a good test. I think with this positive feedback from a couple on here I will try to get it implemented again (on a separate night) and see what happens...

Cheers

[MrJSquishy]

Someone with a high handicap gets a sixteen break then a ten break and gets fifty or sixty for it, what's their next shot? I'm guessing black on a Cush or up the baulk end. That means the good player ( if he only gets twenty for a fifty break) can't win can he? Not quite done the maths but it will be close.

Hi itsnoteasy,

I understand what you're saying, but, a player on a handicap of 300% (the maximum) really is 'that player' that barely knows the right end of the cue (and we have plenty of those at my club, sadly). Someone who can make a 16 & 10 break in a frame is more likely to be off a handicap of say 100%, so their 26 points would likely still be 26 points.

My system has many handicap levels and they are based on average frame scores over the last 10 frames they have played (win or lose). So, players who averaged more than 67 points per frame would be on a handicap of 25% and players who average less than 15 points per frame would be on a handicap of 300%. With many levels in between (25%, 30%, 35%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 85%, 100%, 120%, 145%, 175%, 210%, 250% & 300% being all of them).

And I want to reiterate again: I am not saying this system is perfected yet. It is definitely still a work in progress with potentially lots of changes yet to be made, but, I need to trial it to see how it works. Hopefully, I can get multiple venues trialing something similar and go from there?

Thanks again for your feedback. This needs to be looked at from many different angles!

Cheers

[itsnoteasy]

Squishy, it is the hardest thing to get right and I swing from doing away with them completely as long as there is a plate comp for first round losers ( that way folk don't feel like they are just fodder and also feel like they get their money's worth so will still enter) to right the other way and make them what ever it takes to get as many to enter as you can and you don't get the same two or three players winning every tourney.
I don't know how many folk enter your comps but we tried doing it in a group type thing, four in a group top two go through ( we only get eight to ten or so ) every match best of three, that way everyone gets a minimum of three matches for their entrance fee, our handicaps may as well be scrapped as the most you get is 14 and that's against folk who have made 147s.

[Burnpark]

Handicaps should never be taken seriously and IMHO are more suited to poor handicappers. Nothing more frustrating than giving a 50+ start and the other player messes all the balls up (usually not on purpose). If you can, you should try and stilck to playing people of a similar standard. Maybe offering handicaps for certain bandwidths may be a better idea, think someone earlier said 21 is the biggest start they opeRate.

[jamesg19851]

It was interesting to hear from Tom about the SWSA handicap comp. I doesn't seem fair on better players. I'm an ok player but not that great and would probably benefit from the handicaps but I'd rather compete in a scratch comp with a plate competition. Also, having started league snooker why don't they just make it scratch? Then they coild have the usual promotion and demotion from divisions and you would know where you really are.

[markz]

It was interesting to hear from Tom about the SWSA handicap comp. I doesn't seem fair on better players. I'm an ok player but not that great and would probably benefit from the handicaps but I'd rather compete in a scratch comp with a plate competition. Also, having started league snooker why don't they just make it scratch? Then they coild have the usual promotion and demotion from divisions and you would know where you really are.

I don't think the better players mind to be honest, the comp attracts all levels as the handicaps are an incentive to pay your money and take a chance. Without them the prize fund would be that low that most good players wouldn't enter as it wouldn't be worth it.

I agree with league, not sure why leagues run with handicaps. West Midlands run 6 divisions without handicaps and then all the other competitions are handicapped. Much simpler way than handicap leagues.

[Londonlad147]

Our local leagues all allow individuals to put a team together so you mostly get a complete mix of talent within teams. There have always been one or two teams where they will always try to find the strongest team possible, and back in the 80s, early 90-s they'd won the league thirteen years in a row and multiple times since. When they started they were based out on a limb 17 miles from the core of the league, so there was something of a rebellion because players and teans wouldn't go all that way just to get an automatic thrashing. Teams pulled out rather than getting promoted to the first division.

As a result, and partly because there was a flurry of new 'casual' teams who entered in 1991/92 season, of the 41 teams six with the best players were elevated to a 'premier division' which was handicapped. The rest of the league liked the idea of handicapping and the following year (I think) handicapping was introduced across the league, and so it has been ever since... although there have been umpteen variations of the methodology (and I still think what we did originally was best!).

[alabadi]

we have a handicap system in our winter league in Sheffield, and to be honest i don't mind . i think the better players should be able to overcome anywhere upto 32 start. which is the most in a single division.
Some of these players have played in a higher division and dropped to a lower division probably to win more as they weren't winning in the higher division.

the highest handicap we have is 60, however we are talking about semi pros, players who have entered Q school and have played on the pro circuit, players like Joel Walker, Ashley Carty, Brett Miller and the like.

the handicap at least gives the lesser player something to play for when meeting these players in the competitions. and for most of it 9/10 the better player will win , it might get down to the colours most frames but at least keeps some interest in the game from the lesser player.

i myself am not handicapped and i have met players giving me a start , however i have never played a deliberate shot to tie up a Black, Pink or any other colour for that matter. if i have a pot i go for it if i feel its within my abilty, otherwise i will play safe and wait for a better opportunity.

[markz]

we have a handicap system in our winter league in Sheffield, and to be honest i don't mind . i think the better players should be able to overcome anywhere upto 32 start. which is the most in a single division.
Some of these players have played in a higher division and dropped to a lower division probably to win more as they weren't winning in the higher division.

the highest handicap we have is 60, however we are talking about semi pros, players who have entered Q school and have played on the pro circuit, players like Joel Walker, Ashley Carty, Brett Miller and the like.

the handicap at least gives the lesser player something to play for when meeting these players in the competitions. and for most of it 9/10 the better player will win , it might get down to the colours most frames but at least keeps some interest in the game from the lesser player.

i myself am not handicapped and i have met players giving me a start , however i have never played a deliberate shot to tie up a Black, Pink or any other colour for that matter. if i have a pot i go for it if i feel its within my abilty, otherwise i will play safe and wait for a better opportunity.

How many divisions and teams in the league Alabadi?

[alabadi]

this year with the introduction of a premier league its 7 leagues.....premier and A-F however they have reduced the number of sides per league to 8 , this means you play each side 4 times a season 2 home and 2 away.

[markz]

this year with the introduction of a premier league its 7 leagues.....premier and A-F however they have reduced the number of sides per league to 8 , this means you play each side 4 times a season 2 home and 2 away.

Are all 7 leagues handicapped or are they off scratch and then the other comps like singles doubles etc got the handicap. With 7 leagues I'd have thought it's easy to run scratch leagues and have players where they belong.