Handicapping procedure Open / Handicap events

[alabadi]

When we play its pot luck. The team captain of the home side puts down his 5 players in the order he wants then they cover the names up and the away team captain puts down his 5.

So you could either get a player off scratch or someone with a handicap

[acesinc]

most games go down to the last 2 or 3 colours which shows that the handicap is working. obviously from time to time a player will be out of form and you would get an anomaly where one player wins comfortably.

Hi guys. I am brand new to the forum and, believe it or not, a Yankee living in the US. I fell in love with the game when living for a time in England 30 years ago and have carried a passion for it ever since. This is my first post as a friend directed me here since this happens to be rather a fond topic of mine.

In fact, I was referred to in an early post by MrJSquishy for a write up that I have done regarding this. Nearly every single post in this thread is pointed/counterpointed in the white paper I wrote that is referenced by Squishy. I chose the above to quote rather than numerous others 1) because it is a very recent post, and 2) because it is the perfect demonstration that novice players approach the game from entirely the wrong direction. Many of the posts refer to how handicap systems encourage "negative" snooker to protect the handicap lead. This concept is directly addressed in my system because I believe that a learning player often cannot actually differentiate the idea of negative snooker from positive snooker; instead, he is merely trying to protect his lead to win the frame and thus, wrongly and repetitively learns that this makes for "good snooker".

I developed my system really as a learning tool about 25 years ago and have continued to tweak it as a thought experiment ever since, but here in the barren snooker desert of the USA, I have not been able to implement the idea until fairly recently as my kid has now taken a keen interest in the game. Since then, my son and I play the most thrilling, exciting, and interesting snooker in which I have ever been involved. He has only been playing for about a year, and already he is far more snooker intelligent than any of the other regular players in my small club. His physical skills continue to develop, but already, his tactical and table management skills far exceed many others who have been swinging a cue for literally decades.

Ultimately, because of its design, my "learning" system can be very easily adapted as a "handicap" system. Unfortunately, other than myself and my son, I don't have any further data about it because my small club is primarily filled with (American) pool converts who are demonstrably bangers on a snooker table and will play at the Yellow as quickly as playing at the Black and so cannot be educated of anything because they already know everything.

So if anyone is interested in learning the details of this system, here is a direct link. Be warned, it is a long slog of a read so your interest level in this topic must be pure and strong if you attempt the endeavour.

http://www.acesmachinery.com/league/...whitepaper.pdf

I welcome any comments, questions, criticisms.

[vmax4steve]

ours is similar with a point up and down but not if its a black ball game as then the handicaps are deemed to be pretty much right

What happens then, do the handicaps of both players not alter ? If so that would seem strange as one player is going to win and has been helped to do so by his handicap.

The problem in our league is that there are a lot of high handicappers who have been playing a long time and know how to defend their start, they only seem to lose when they play each other and need to score, so their handicaps hardly change at all.
There is one team in our league who all play off the max of +50, bloody nightmare playing them as every one of them plays safe and defends their start, but they're so bad it takes them all bloody night to lose 5-0. They're out for a drink to get away from 'the wife' and really enjoy it but the rest of us don't.

Last season one of our players played against a bloke who he had to give 50 start to, he potted all 15 reds but as the other bloke messed up the table with his safety shots he only made a few colours, and lost the frame when matey potted a long pink and black, the only balls he potted in the frame. Took over an hour that one and muggins here was reffing it, "one ! one ! one ! I am a recording, one !"

[vmax4steve]

So if anyone is interested in learning the details of this system, here is a direct link. Be warned, it is a long slog of a read so your interest level in this topic must be pure and strong if you attempt the endeavour.

http://www.acesmachinery.com/league/...whitepaper.pdf

I welcome any comments, questions, criticisms.

Interesting idea, and probably a good game between two people who know it well, but to apply this to a league of several hundred people and expect them all to understand it would be nigh on impossible.
We have players in our league who have been playing for forty years and don't know the free ball rule.

[itsnoteasy]

At the start of the season teams have to name their one and two players, they must play either one or two for the season, and three to five must play in those positions but you can vary with form. Then just play your team in strength order, there is no need whatsoever for handicaps in a league set up. The top players will make their way through to the top league and all the rest will find their level, job done, I don't see what the need for all the confusion is.

[acesinc]

Interesting idea, and probably a good game between two people who know it well, but to apply this to a league of several hundred people and expect them all to understand it would be nigh on impossible.
We have players in our league who have been playing for forty years and don't know the free ball rule.

I absolutely agree with you and this is precisely why Squishy had said earlier "It is quite a different view again, but, a system that I think would be great with up and coming junior players especially." Also stated within the white paper, it is something that is a long term vision, not something which can be implemented overnight. I think the only way that it CAN work is within a large venue setting with multiple leagues. So there is a "scratch" league; then a "handicap" league which is the way it has always been; then the upstart "handicap colours" league which would be just a handful of pioneers of the game trying to figure this thing out. All of that would need to fall under a single authority and let the leagues evolve as they will. If this were possible, I believe the standard "handicap" league would eventually wither on the vine as in the long run, players would naturally migrate to the inherently more interesting mode of play in the "handicap colours" league.

Unfortunately, with the very small pool of non-pioneer players in my small venue this is not an experiment that I can conduct. I can only attest to the fact of how fascinating the game has become for myself and my son.

[andy carson]

What happens then, do the handicaps of both players not alter ? If so that would seem strange as one player is going to win and has been helped to do so by his handicap.

The problem in our league is that there are a lot of high handicappers who have been playing a long time and know how to defend their start, they only seem to lose when they play each other and need to score, so their handicaps hardly change at all.
There is one team in our league who all play off the max of +50, bloody nightmare playing them as every one of them plays safe and defends their start, but they're so bad it takes them all bloody night to lose 5-0. They're out for a drink to get away from 'the wife' and really enjoy it but the rest of us don't.

Last season one of our players played against a bloke who he had to give 50 start to, he potted all 15 reds but as the other bloke messed up the table with his safety shots he only made a few colours, and lost the frame when matey potted a long pink and black, the only balls he potted in the frame. Took over an hour that one and muggins here was reffing it, "one ! one ! one ! I am a recording, one !"

each player plays one frame, yep if lose you go up 1pt win you go down 1pt, comittee can alter handicaps for new players if they end up battering everyone in sight off a high one though so there is room for major adjustments, after 4 or 5 weeks it does pretty much level out so games are even and both players do have a chance of winning the frame

[jonny66]

I like the sound of that handicap colours system, I might try it out but I think it could be hard to explain.

[jonny66]

If someone calls handicap black, misses the black, black goes back on the spot, then they miss the next red, end of break at the score before they called handicap black. Do they still lose that handicap point?

[acesinc]

If someone calls handicap black, misses the black, black goes back on the spot, then they miss the next red, end of break at the score before they called handicap black. Do they still lose that handicap point?

According to the way I have written the system, NO, the handicap is not claimed so the handicap number remains as previous. The trick is to understand the difference between DECLARING a handicap and CLAIMING a handicap. Say you are playing as a "3" handicap. You pot Red and DECLARE handicap Black, attempt to pot and miss, Black goes back to spot. At this point, you must decide, "Did I leave myself well on the next Red? Can I pot it?" IF you pot that Red, you have now CLAIMED that handicap so you now have "2" handicaps remaining for the frame. However, you are not even required to attempt to pot the next Red if things didn't work out well with your shot.You can play safe off it if you want or maybe you do attempt to pot that Red but miss. In any case that you do not pot that Red, you do not CLAIM the handicap, therefore you would remain as a "3" left for the frame.

In a similar vein, when you pot a Red, say that you DECLARE handicap Black. And you pot it. Everything is perfect. No handicap is CLAIMED because it was a natural pot so if you were at "3" before, you remain at "3", the next Red is completely irrelevant to your handicap number, whether you pot it or not. Your handicap number will ONLY go down when you DECLARE a handicap Colour, miss the pot of that Colour, but then you pot the following Red to CLAIM the handicap.

[vmax4steve]

each player plays one frame, yep if lose you go up 1pt win you go down 1pt, comittee can alter handicaps for new players if they end up battering everyone in sight off a high one though so there is room for major adjustments, after 4 or 5 weeks it does pretty much level out so games are even and both players do have a chance of winning the frame

Probably exactly the same as our system. We had a new player last season who was given a handicap of 25, he then went on to hammer a few decent players, got cut to 5 by the committee, lost a few and never played again. Leagues need to encourage new players and not put them off if they can pot a decent ball and string a few together; this is why we have now introduced a two point system so that new players who are decent will come down faster naturally, and of course the opposite is also true.
Our handicaps are adjusted at the halfway point of the season and again at the end ready for the start of the new one.

[andy carson]

Probably exactly the same as our system. We had a new player last season who was given a handicap of 25, he then went on to hammer a few decent players, got cut to 5 by the committee, lost a few and never played again. Leagues need to encourage new players and not put them off if they can pot a decent ball and string a few together; this is why we have now introduced a two point system so that new players who are decent will come down faster naturally, and of course the opposite is also true.
Our handicaps are adjusted at the halfway point of the season and again at the end ready for the start of the new one.

yeah sounds similar, think ours are done 3 times a season

[tommo146]

I help running two leagues and the lowest handicap is -7 with the highest being 70 so it is possible for someone to have 77 start but basically only an ex pro playing someone who can barely hold a cue would get that start most of the starts are no more than 35 and generally in the handicap event I'm talking about the better players still win the difficulty is if you don't give good starts to the lesser players then you get a lot less entries meaning the prize fund is less, handicap system is to level out the chances for all and to be honest a top player making centuries should comfortably be able to fetch 50 start back and in most case they do and one of the leagues I'm involves in is the best in the country

[Ronnington]

When I started out playing open handicap tournaments as a kid, the Pros and pro-standard players were around -40/-45 handicap, the worst players with top breaks of 20 were +60 handicap, then everyone else in between.

If you reached a final you got 6 points lost off your handicap, plate final 3 points and Semis 2 points.. It seemed to work fine

[eeitcry]

Hi,

We run a 6-Red handicap tournament every week

every player starts off with a handicap mark
+55 is the max handicap...0/scratch being the lowest..lowest winning handicap has been +20
anyone who wins the tournament gets deducted -8, runner-up -6,semis -5
anyone who wins the tournament (we run from sept to april)twice gets deducted -20
winners move slowly out after winning
eg..player wins off +55,next week +47,loses 1st round,then +49 the following week etc..

idea is to get as many winners as possible,and it works!

now,in parallel, we run a points system every week.
winner +10,semi +7,semi +5,quarter +4...each entrant +2
at the end of the season,the top16 on points go through to the big 6-red finals night

any questions,let me know