Web based tool for snooker scorekeeping and display

[avitkauskas]

OK. You want it - You have it! Now you can set the number of reds when creating the match. You can enter any number you choose - I don't restrict you. But you will not be able to change it after the match was created (that could upset the game in progress - all the information remembered in undo buffer etc.). If you change your mind, just delete the match and create another one. So now you can mark 6 reds or 10 reds games easily! As for any other "crazy" variants that @acesinc described - I hope that some of these you will be able to juggle even with the current version, as I do not want to through away all the intelligence that the system has now. But let's use it and then judge if this intelligence helps or not. Maybe we finally find out that it has just register the will of the human

[acesinc]

A very good solution, avitkauskas. Well done!

[avitkauskas]

ACESinc, I see you are actually using it for the real game! I'm whatching it live on my iPad too Nice! Drop a line then how it was. That's the first official usage of the app!

[acesinc]

ACESinc, I see you are actually using it for the real game! I'm whatching it live on my iPad too Nice! Drop a line then how it was. That's the first official usage of the app!

Avitkauskas, you are quite astute and observant! Yes, this is the first time I used your app live. Have to admit that it was a little clumsy at first, but ONLY because it is something new so that is to be expected. At first, I kept the score myself completely...opponent an old time player (even more so than me )so not very keen on trying new things. But after a couple of frames, he said he would give it a try and he picked up on it quite well. So that brings me to my first analysis...

Love it! Is it perfect? Not quite, but very nearly so. First, to give you the scenario, my table is set up in my work shop so I have complete control of the environment. That means I have a desktop computer with internet access with a large screen easily visible just off the Baulk end of the table. So I set that screen to "View" for live score update visible from anywhere on the snooker table. (For a public table, I can envision public access wi-fi and someone would set up their iPad to serve this function...I think the screen would be big enough and close enough to the table to be easily readable). Back to my shop now, I took control of the "Mark" function using my mobile phone so I just went to the required screen on my mobile's internet access. I did take note that it is possible for BOTH players to each have control of the "Mark" function by using their own phones and logging in using a common login name and password. Sweet! So I told the guy I was playing that his primary job as "Referee" is still to spot the colours....don't be concerned about keeping score on the phone until the colour is back on its spot. And then the LAST thing to do before stepping to the table is to hit the "End Break" button and glance at the monitor so the yellow numeral should now be under the player who is stepping to the table. It is really a very simple habit to get into.

Now as for the problems I encountered (spoiler alert! they are very minor, no big problems at all):

First thing I noticed is that after a Red is potted, then the Colour buttons become available (not darkened) but I also noticed that the Red button also remains available and I thought, "Well, that might lead to mistakes..." But after just a few minutes thought, I realized that you did that on purpose! Of course, there is the possibility of potting two or more Reds on a single stroke so by keeping Red lit up, this would then allow for these unusual scoring situations. Well done! Nothing to change at all.

Next thing that I noticed is that using my mobile screen, all of the buttons are quite large, therefore, it is sometimes necessary to scroll up and down the screen to get to the button that you need...just a little bit inconvenient. This could probably be improved by simply making the buttons smaller on the mobile format (I am not a programmer so I have no idea how this is accomplished but I know that you computer programmer guys can be absolute magicians with this sort of thing). I do notice that many of the buttons are smaller like the various "Foul" buttons, so maybe if you just go with a smaller font, then the buttons would automatically be smaller and maybe then they would all fit on the screen. Maybe you could also squeeze the colour balls buttons in a little tighter to also help things fit a little nicer. This is NOT a major problem at all.....if this is difficult to do, then no problem really, but if I don't have to scroll, then it makes the HMI a little easier.

And the last thing (and for me, this one is kind of a biggie that I would definitely like to see changed...): my kids ALWAYS make fun of me trying to use my mobile phone. I believe that all of the "touch screen" technology just is not very well designed for "old fingers". I don't know if these touch screens are supposed to sense heat, or moisture, or what, but I do know that me and a LOT of older people like me sometimes have trouble getting the damn touch screen button to respond to our touch. So in the case of your app, what this means is that anytime I would hit the "End Break" button, the ONLY way that I knew for sure that the screen responded was to look at the "View" big screen monitor to see if the yellow "break" numeral had switched over to the other player (remember what I said above about everything fitting on the mobile screen....it wouldn't make any sense to scroll all the way up to look on the mobile screen if the player had switched, a lot easier to just look at the big monitor). And if it didn't switch players (which is fairly often when you have "old fingers"), then I would have to hit the button again and look again if it had switched. I noticed that if I take control of the "Mark" function on a laptop computer, then I can actually detect a change in colour (from a white to a darker grey) when the button is pressed. But on the mobile phone, the button seems to just stay a bright white even when it is pressed. I am quite certain that you clever computer programmers can make the action do whatever you want it to do so I would suggest that it make a DEFINITE colour change when the press input has been accepted....like maybe make it flash a green colour or something obvious when the input is accepted. Or at the very least, it can go from the bright white to a dark grey and back to the bright white again and I will know that the phone has recognized my touch.

I really do love this app! Again, I say "Well done!" I will be using it again later tonight when I come back in for a few frames with my kid.

[avitkauskas]

First thing I noticed is that after a Red is potted, then the Colour buttons become available (not darkened) but I also noticed that the Red button also remains available and I thought, "Well, that might lead to mistakes..." But after just a few minutes thought, I realized that you did that on purpose! Of course, there is the possibility of potting two or more Reds on a single stroke so by keeping Red lit up, this would then allow for these unusual scoring situations. Well done! Nothing to change at all.

Yes, that is on purpose. It's a must. You'll find some the things there also:
- like the situation after the free ball is declared;
- red is on and you nominate brown as a free ball;
- what you click in the marking app?
- of course you click BROWN (no thinking here!) - don't worry the app will add 1 point to the score;
- if blue is on afer the free ball, and you nominate black - you push black, of course, and 5 points are scored;
- if it's free ball, green is on, and you click green in app - 3 points scored, ball is not respotted - you cannot nominate the ball on as a free ball, so if you played it, you refused the free ball in fact;
- things like that...

Or try the situation like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX8OJQqicFw
(the rules have been changed from that time to handle this kind of situations with more clarity, see the comment here (in the middle of the text) https://www.prosnookerblog.com/2011/...ee-andy-yates/)

So, "intelligent" app is fun to make - go catch me where I did not foresee something in the app

[avitkauskas]

Next thing that I noticed is that using my mobile screen, all of the buttons are quite large, therefore, it is sometimes necessary to scroll up and down the screen to get to the button that you need...just a little bit inconvenient. This could probably be improved by simply making the buttons smaller on the mobile format (I am not a programmer so I have no idea how this is accomplished but I know that you computer programmer guys can be absolute magicians with this sort of thing). I do notice that many of the buttons are smaller like the various "Foul" buttons, so maybe if you just go with a smaller font, then the buttons would automatically be smaller and maybe then they would all fit on the screen. Maybe you could also squeeze the colour balls buttons in a little tighter to also help things fit a little nicer. This is NOT a major problem at all.....if this is difficult to do, then no problem really, but if I don't have to scroll, then it makes the HMI a little easier.

I really do love this app! Again, I say "Well done!" I will be using it again later tonight when I come back in for a few frames with my kid.

I made some improvements after the feedback of @acesinc. Feebback from others is also very welcome!

[acesinc]

Avitkauskas, I am happy to report back that I used your scoring app with all the latest improvements last night in my regular match with my kid. We used the handicap feature....perfect. Your change to the mobile button sizes is perfect as far as my phone screen size is concerned...I can now see the current striker easily on the phone screen so when pressing "End Break", it is plain and clear that touch screen input has been accepted. All of the buttons and prompts are clearly differentiated and the buttons even with their new smaller size are still very easy to press. I can fit ALL of the critical buttons on my mobile screen at the same time without having to scroll; the only time I need to scroll is in case of a mistake, then I need to scroll down to "Undo" or of course at the end of the frame for "Concede" or "Frame Won". As those are obviously unusual situations, scrolling is perfectly acceptable.

All in all, my rating is absolutely 5 stars out of 5 stars! This app is perfect for what it is intended to do. This actually has an added benefit that you probably had not even considered when you designed it. In playing against my opponents, I notice A LOT of arithmetical errors on the sliding scoreboard; whether intentional or accidental, I make no claim. I often notice near the end of a frame, my opponent may look at the scoreboard and say something like, "47 and 31 so that's, um, let's see....difference of 16" and then they proceed with their turn. And the next time they come to the table, another ball or two has been potted and they will go through exactly the same routine again. When I learned the game from people I respected, I just learned to constantly keep a running tally of the difference in my head; I don't really pay attention to the actual score numbers, I just keep tabulating the difference as balls are removed from the table with an occasional glance to the scoreboard to confirm. Now of course, I admit that I may also make errors in my own calculations, but far too often it occurs that the score ends up different on the slider board than the difference tabulations in my head. I think the errors mainly come from two things: 1) just the slider movement being inaccurate...it gets positioned but then on the next score, it's current position is misread because it was kind of pointing between numbers, so the new score added then slides the pointer to a new, incorrect position, and 2) people just being bad with maths in their head when having to slide the pointer past the "20's" marks, for example, say I am currently on 33, then I run a break of 15. Personally, I slide the slider to the end (40) and I think to myself, "That's seven" so I slide back to the beginning 0 mark and think, "Add 8 more" and that is fifteen. From what I see, it seems that most people look at the board and think, "OK, I am at 33 and I got a break of 15 so 33 plus 15 is....is.....is.....48" and I think that a lot of people just tend to make a lot of maths mistakes. This literally just happened to me in a frame a couple days ago. I had been tracking the score from the time that one Red was left. I took that Red with a Blue and followed with the Yellow. So I scored it and checked the board to verify the score difference. A couple more shots and Blue, Pink, Black was left and with the running tally in my head, if my opponent took Blue (which was likely) I would still be up two points so only Pink required to be up eight with only Black left. He took Blue, missed Pink and left it difficult for me. I took the Pink leaving half safe and when it dropped in pocket, I just reached to grab some balls and glanced up at the slider scoreboard.......on the scoreboard, I was displayed as 1 point in the lead; Black would be required as the Pink only put me up by seven. My opponent got out of his chair to grab balls and I said, "Oh, I guess you can still draw. I thought it was over." He looked at the board and said, "Oh, so did I." I potted Black.

So my point is, I think this sort of thing happens all the time with manual scoring and most of the time, people don't even notice it. And if you do notice an error in the score, what are you going to do? Argue about it? Of course, it is not worth it, you just accept the score as it is and move on. With the electronic scoreboard, the computer does the maths, there will be no arithmetical errors. Of course, there could still be human interface error.....someone forgets to "End Break" so the next score gets added onto the wrong player but that is just a silly, stupid error and hopefully, somebody notices it before moving on too far and so it is very easy to "Undo" and correct.

Congratulations on a very well designed app and I encourage everyone who has the electronics hardware available give this a try. I will always be using this for scoring when I can. Some of my opponents are old-timers and simply will not accept something new like this, but if you are open to change, then this is a much better way to track your score. And yet another side benefit is that the information of your match can be publicly viewed on the internet. This means that if you go off to another city for some tournament, the folks back home interested in your snooker can actually "watch" your match live as it unfolds. The very simple interface means that you can track your own and your opponent's score on your mobile and the button pushes are so simple and non-intrusive that it will not interfere with your "mental game" at all to input the data so family and friends can "watch" your match as you input scoring as it happens. The only problem I see with this is if you are a very good player that makes a lot of high breaks, it will be difficult to remember every colour you took in a break to input after your turn. If you are a "normal" player and you don't usually make more than a six or eight ball break, then it is easy. For instance, if you run an eight ball 30 break and miss your following Red, it is easy to remember you took 3 Blacks and a Blue. So when you go back to your chair, you input that on your mobile....Red, Black, Red, Black, Red, Black, Red, Blue. Getting the order exactly correct does not matter in the least as long as you are accurate with the number of Reds and the Colours you took in the break. I will be doing this so my kids can "watch" me next time I have opportunity to go to the US Nationals in the next year or two.

[avitkauskas]

All in all, my rating is absolutely 5 stars out of 5 stars! This app is perfect for what it is intended to do.

Congratulations on a very well designed app and I encourage everyone who has the electronics hardware available give this a try. I will always be using this for scoring when I can.

Thank you, acesinc! This app got so much better with your feedback already.
And I got some motivation to keep it up and improve.
Spread the word, if you please, and direct others to try the app at

http://snookerscore.vitkauskas.lt

I'd love to see more people using it daily and having more fun at the snooker table.
as the more people use it - the better it will become with their feedback also.

[djax]

Thank you, acesinc! This app got so much better with your feedback already.
And I got some motivation to keep it up and improve.
Spread the word, if you please, and direct others to try the app at

http://snookerscore.vitkauskas.lt

I'd love to see more people using it daily and having more fun at the snooker table.
as the more people use it - the better it will become with their feedback also.

Excellent application, well done. Echoing certain points raised, is there value in adding a points remaining utility? Surprising how many nowadays have little numeracy skills.

[acesinc]

Excellent application, well done. Echoing certain points raised, is there value in adding a points remaining utility? Surprising how many nowadays have little numeracy skills.

I agree with your assessment, djax, but I must chime in with a dissenting opinion on your proposal. While I don't think anyone can disagree that Snooker is an endeavour which requires significant physical skills, historically, it has also been considered as somewhat of a cerebral exercise as well. One will not go very far by bashing the balls around without purpose even if one manages to frequently pot the ball that one happens to be bashing at. In other words, if you don't understand why you are doing what you are doing, you probably will not go very far as a Snooker player. The brain needs to remain engaged and a part of that is doing the arithmetic. It is actually specifically written in the Rules that the Referee is not allowed to give any information to any player unless that information is specifically authorized by the Rules. How that applies here is that according to the Rules, the Referee is forbidden from answering a question such as, "What is the difference in our points scores?" or "How many possible points remain on the table?" By the Rules, questions such as these MUST be answered in the minds of the players, NOT by the Referee. The inanimate scoreboard in effect is acting as a stand-in for the Referee in this circumstance and should be restricted to the same rule of NOT providing unauthorized information to the players.

Back in the old days, before the "modern" scoreboard which updates the current score with every pot, the scoreboard remained the same until after a break was completed so players were actually required to do more maths....they needed to add their CURRENT break to their old score, then compare that new score to their opponent's score in order to figure out the CURRENT DIFFERENCE in scores. A perfect example of that is here in an historic break, Alex has to ask the Referee what his current break is at (the Ref is authorized to answer this) to do his mental calculations:

https://youtu.be/LPeeDeAuOFI?t=140

The graphics we see on the telly screen of course are up-to-date advising the viewers of the difference in scores and the stage at which penalty points will be required, but honestly, this is just "dumbing down" the game to the level of the audience. The players should be held to a higher standard.

So while your point is quite valid, due to historic and Rules issues, I personally am not in favour of this particular change. Doing the maths has always been and should always remain a part of the Game in my opinion.

[acesinc]

For Avitkauskas: My friend, for the first time, I have found an error in the "intelligence" of your program. The post above from djax got me to thinking so I did a test. Firstly, the relevant Rule is Section 3., Rule 14., (a) (ii) about "Foul and a Miss". What it boils down to is that when the frames has reached what is usually called the "snookers required" stage, then the "Foul and a Miss" shall not be called (except for an unusual situation of a flagrant, intentional foul). So what this means for your intelligence is that in such a situation, the "Miss" button should be dulled and unavailable to help the players to avoid making an incorrect FAAM call.

[djax]

I agree with your assessment, djax, but I must chime in with a dissenting opinion on your proposal. While I don't think anyone can disagree that Snooker is an endeavour which requires significant physical skills, historically, it has also been considered as somewhat of a cerebral exercise as well. One will not go very far by bashing the balls around without purpose even if one manages to frequently pot the ball that one happens to be bashing at. In other words, if you don't understand why you are doing what you are doing, you probably will not go very far as a Snooker player. The brain needs to remain engaged and a part of that is doing the arithmetic. It is actually specifically written in the Rules that the Referee is not allowed to give any information to any player unless that information is specifically authorized by the Rules. How that applies here is that according to the Rules, the Referee is forbidden from answering a question such as, "What is the difference in our points scores?" or "How many possible points remain on the table?" By the Rules, questions such as these MUST be answered in the minds of the players, NOT by the Referee. The inanimate scoreboard in effect is acting as a stand-in for the Referee in this circumstance and should be restricted to the same rule of NOT providing unauthorized information to the players.

Back in the old days, before the "modern" scoreboard which updates the current score with every pot, the scoreboard remained the same until after a break was completed so players were actually required to do more maths....they needed to add their CURRENT break to their old score, then compare that new score to their opponent's score in order to figure out the CURRENT DIFFERENCE in scores. A perfect example of that is here in an historic break, Alex has to ask the Referee what his current break is at (the Ref is authorized to answer this) to do his mental calculations:

https://youtu.be/LPeeDeAuOFI?t=140

The graphics we see on the telly screen of course are up-to-date advising the viewers of the difference in scores and the stage at which penalty points will be required, but honestly, this is just "dumbing down" the game to the level of the audience. The players should be held to a higher standard.

So while your point is quite valid, due to historic and Rules issues, I personally am not in favour of this particular change. Doing the maths has always been and should always remain a part of the Game in my opinion.

Acesinc, very valid points you make and coming from the "old school" fully support. My reason for raising the issue? Concern for where the next generation of snooker players are coming from? Knowing how you have to engage the youngsters of today and their short attention span, I was thinking maybe such a added facility would help? If possible, perhaps a choice of use could be incorporated?

[acesinc]

Agreed. I cannot follow the professional game very closely, but I so often read on these forums of the common malaise that the younger players are not up to the talent level of previous generations. Also I regularly hear the general feeling of a shortened attention span due to the shortcuts and time-wasters of electronic gizmos and video games. Could these two things be completely unrelated? I think not. Any up-and-coming young players should think to themselves that this game is more than banging balls around the green baize. There is a certain level of mental acuity required and a good player should strive for it.

Oh, and by the way, I am not saying that snooker players are "smart" in any general sense. Surely, many are dumb as a bag of hammers when it comes to life issues. But to do well at the table, one must at least be "snooker intelligent" and that ought include competent basic maths skills.

[djax]

Agreed. I cannot follow the professional game very closely, but I so often read on these forums of the common malaise that the younger players are not up to the talent level of previous generations. Also I regularly hear the general feeling of a shortened attention span due to the shortcuts and time-wasters of electronic gizmos and video games. Could these two things be completely unrelated? I think not. Any up-and-coming young players should think to themselves that this game is more than banging balls around the green baize. There is a certain level of mental acuity required and a good player should strive for it.

An example of the "Millenial Generation" I'm ashamed too say. My daughter (product of expensive private education) required my help this last week. She was measuring space on TV unit (for soundbar she was purchasing) Could not work out the units on the tape measure, compared with specs for soundbar given!!!

[avitkauskas]

Hi, @djax. Thank you for your comments.
As concerned the points remaining - I absolutely agree with the point of view that @asecinc explained so clearly. He anwsered that question for me already.
I strongly hold the point that snooker is mental play as well as physical play - and the rules are the rules, so no "TV information" on players display.
And that app is first of all designed to be used at the table - for the players.