Particular type of shot

[RGCirencester]

When you play a ball with side it "throws" that ball off the intended line of aim (hitting in exactly the same spot), therefore to correctly pot the ball you must aim a little thinner / thicker than intended. So a straight shot becomes a slightly angled shot when played with side.

[DandyA]

I believe in what is called "throw" or what UK snooker commentators call "turning the ball over" ...

Say you have a dead straight black (black on spot, white on yellow side of table) except the dead straight line is set on the left jaw - normally you'd hit the black slightly on the left but say there's another ball preventing that ...

Aim at the black centre putting medium left hand side and medium weight on the cue ball ... as the white hits the black it will cause the black to throw to the right in this example ...

According to Dr Dave Alciatore who someone mentioned earlier on this thread, the trick is to not use too much side or too much weight ... I'm not a scientist but I would agree ... you do see pro's use throw and commentators talk about it and I can use it too although it doesn't always work (probably my poor cueing?) ...

[Forman]

it can be done. i can make the cueball roll over the black spot out of a dead straight blue to the middle. using cushions of course. and i'm not that good.

so can i, but by pinching the pocket to create an angle and using side to change the angle off the cushion,this is completely different to using side in order to get the cue ball to deviate from running straight through or screwing straight back (which in my opinion cant be done, unless your swerving the cueball before making contact)

because they got to minimize the risk of everything that could go wrong.
for a pro, the long red from next to the blue into the corner is a lot easier and more predictable. easy to run through 10cm, or screw exactly 15, leaving EXACTLY the angle you need. instead of hammering it in, risking the miss, just to get 30cm closer to de red with APPROXIMATELY the angle you need.
it all is a matter of weighting risks, chances, percentages.

so you won't be able to link me to a video of a frame where a pro acually does what your talking about?

I'm sorry but untill i see it done i dont believe it.

[DandyA]

BTW ... according to my theory, this explains the dead straight blue discussion too ...

to get "throw" the cue-ball can't be hit too hard or with too much spin ... so it won't help getting the white nearer the next red which is why I think, you'll always see a pro leave a longer pot ...

mindu, I often notice pro's on other pots using "helping side" which I personally don't understand ...

[Forman]

I believe in what is called "throw" or what UK snooker commentators call "turning the ball over" ...

Say you have a dead straight black (black on spot, white on yellow side of table) except the dead straight line is set on the left jaw - normally you'd hit the black slightly on the left but say there's another ball preventing that ...

Aim at the black centre putting medium left hand side and medium weight on the cue ball ... as the white hits the black it will cause the black to throw to the right in this example ...

According to Dr Dave Alciatore who someone mentioned earlier on this thread, the trick is to not use too much side or too much weight ... I'm not a scientist but I would agree ... you do see pro's use throw and commentators talk about it and I can use it too although it doesn't always work (probably my poor cueing?) ...

this is a question of wether on not there is enough friction between two balls for side imparted on the cueball to have any effect on the direction the object ball travels after contact.

I believe that there isnt enough friction or surface area in contact at the time of impact for side on the cue ball to effect the object ball

When you play a ball with side it "throws" that ball off the intended line of aim (hitting in exactly the same spot), therefore to correctly pot the ball you must aim a little thinner / thicker than intended. So a straight shot becomes a slightly angled shot when played with side.

I completely disagree with this rob

[DandyA]

this is a question of wether on not there is enough friction between two balls for side imparted on the cueball to have any effect on the direction the object ball travels after contact.

I believe that there isnt enough friction or surface area in contact at the time of impact for side on the cue ball to effect the object ball

yes that's a very good point Forman and that is the question ... my reply (but only my opinion) ...

I once saw a video (I would think posted on this forum) of a 9ball expert using super-highly-polished balls proving there is no throw ... and I mean polished rather than just clean ...

I'm an old, occasional and poor snooker player but I did treat myself to a set of Aramith Tournament Champions for last Xmas - cleaned in soapy water, never polished - and I can demonstrate throw to make a pot (but not to hit a dead straight blue and get the white down the table) ...

Being the proud owner of a set of TC's I read a bit about them ... did you know it would take a 5 tonne press to smash one? and that they reach some silly stupid instant temperature at the point of contact ...

Would you admit there's a lot more going on than any human eye can see but that super-slo-mo cameras are starting to? Obviously, the contact between cue and cue-ball is not instant because we use all use a floppy bit of wood with an even softer bit of cow at the end ... but neither is the contact between two things we think are rock hard ie snooker balls ...

On an aside, it always makes me smile when Thorne and Virgo are on commentary together ... whenever the producer shows a super-slo-mo replay of a contact, Thorne always says "that didn't happen in our day did it John?" and Virgo always replies "no, it didn't" ... actually, it did, it was just that super-slo-mo camera hadn't been invented so they couldn't see it ...

[checkSide]

It seems to me you're talking about swerving the cueball before it makes contact with the object ball to create an angle, fair enough this would create a slight angle on a straight shot without pinching the pocket but i cant imagine why you would ever want to try do this in a game situation, it's incredably hard to pot a ball acurately if youve swerved the cueball before contacting the object ball even for a very good player and the position a couple of inches either side of straight you gain dont seem worth the risk to me.

Yes Forman, I am talking about swerve, but not in the sense of elevating the cue.

When you play with side you have to take into account the initial squirt of the cue ball being pushed off line by striking with side, followed by the swerve back into the aiming line also created by striking with side.

I'm sure you've played snooker long enough to know that some shots, dependant on pace, distance to the object ball, and amount of side you are using, REQUIRE A DIFFERENT AIMING LINE to the plain ball shot.

Do you accept this fact?

If you do, then you will see that a straight shot played with side may require you to aim to miss the pocket. The result of this is the cue ball no longer follows the straight line after impact. Therefore is possible to create a small angle on a straight shot, if you play with side.

Do you really think you aim shots with side exactly the same as you aim with plain ball??
If it were that easy to play with side, everyone would be doing it wouldn't they? It would be very simple indeed.

[DandyA]

just to add to checkside's comment, I am debating throw and definitely not swerve ...

[Krypton]

1st of 2 posts: Side on shots without a cushion involved

now things are becoming complicated because several people "speak of different things" or "don't read carefully enough what's acually on"...

not to be offensive, but hey - we discussed on 2 things so far, and with both, I'm pretty much with Checkside.

First, really first question, was this:

Is there any point of putting side on a ball if it doesn't hit a cushion?

Nobody speaking of straight pots only, or of angled only. The answer has been given:
- yes, there is. The object ball can be thrown a little, and the cueball will change it's direction, compared to a shot without side.

there are at least 2 scenarios where this is helpful:

1) an angled pot, and the natural path of the white gives you too much angle, you'd like to roll it forward a little bit straighter, narrower - so you play with "check side off the object ball" to straighten the line the cueball will take. because this also has an effect on the object ball, you got to adjust the aiming. this can, as checkside said, be VERY helpfull in a tight layout at the black end of the table.
To widen the angle, this is useless/not necessary, because normally you can just play the shot a little bit more "stun" than "run through" to make the white come off at a bigger angle.

2) a pot that would normally be "impossible", because you can't see enough of the object ball, can be made by throwing the object ball in. There is a video on youtube (unless it's been removed... bloody hell) of a jimmy white maximum where he lost postion in a way that he could see a fraction to little of his next red. he "throws it in with side".

Take note of these additions:

- both has been done, is done, and will be done. There are videos. The pros use it "all the time", so "whenever it's called for". I've done some of these, and I'm not that goog.
- it doesn't matter if people think there is enough friction or not - it's just bloody possible
- it alters the path from object AND cue ball, so aiming has to be corrected
- no ball has touched a cushion, it answers the original question
- it has nothing to do with "cheating the pockets", the ball can be played into the middle of the pocket, normally (no other balls around preventing that). then of course, you still got the margin of error when aiming to the middle of the pocket, or you can use the margin to get an extra freedom...
- using technically advanced equipement, you could see the cueball swerve before it makes contact with the object ball. it always will when using side. but this is not the point, not taken into consideration. i don't want to slightly swerve around a interferring ball, I want to throw the red.
(-> checkside and me, we're not speaking of "Swerve" (intentionally) before contact, it just happens. links/videos/diagrams just to help, if anyone's interested).
- checkside mentioned that this can been seen best/trained easily setting up a straight blue. That does not mean that the blue is where this thing is called for the most, it's happening anywhere on the table, at the black end more often even, as he added.
our idea is: you can gain a few inches to the left/right using side, and you can throw balls.

[Krypton]

2nd post: the dead straight blue (or whatever colour)

ive always been under the impression that faced with a dead straight shot you can only run straight through, stop dead or screw straight back regardless of wether you play with side or not

1lawyer stressed out what checkside an me said before, and only

yes of course it can be done using the cushion, but the point was without using a cushion.

got it wrong: nobody said there hasn't to be a cushion here.

this is a different situation and easy to explain:
it is definitely possible to leave the straight line with the cue ball:

1) using side and the effect described in the first post, to gain a few inches to either side. this IS NOT cheating the pocket, it can be done sending the object ball to the heart of the pocket.

2) shooting into different sections of the pocket (cheating the pocket).

3) a combination of the two above.


If, playing like that (no. 2), you can bring the white out enough to completely miss the jaws, the side will have an extra effect and give you a wide range of possibilities. it's not always easy, of course.

- white 30 cm away from a dead straight blue, frame won, time for a little exhibition: hammer the blue, topspin, side, and make that white travel. OF COURSE off cushions.

- anything else: play it in, make sure of the pot, and leave yourself a longer red (that was my point before). imagine the cueball closer to an interfering ball, close to the pocket (cueing over pocket)... risky enough, don't dare to play the shot as above.

an example of 1): two reds close together, near blue spot, covering each other in a way you can't pot them when the white is on the "blue center line". just play it with wide, cheating the pocket as well of course as throwing/moving the white, and you may gain position onto one of the reds.



to sum it up, all together, checkside (and myself) were speaking of these things:

= putting side on a ball when nothing is going to hit a cushion CAN be helpful, to:
- either move / throw the object ball
- change the angle the cueball will come off the other ball
- both are played rather soft
- technically speaking, the cueball might swerve a little, but that's not that important

= a dead straight pot: is it possible to move on the line of aim only?
- NO! several possibilities:
_ use technique above if it's a matter of inches or fractions of inches
_ cheat the pocket (no shot is 'dead straight' only, as the pocket offers a 'range' to aim for)
_ hammer it in, using side off cushions to help you.

[Krypton]

sorry for posting 3 times in a row, but I want to keep a single post onto one subject / type of shot only...

now I think that's all, hope I've not forgotten anything. If you think one of the above is impossible, due to the lack of friction, let me (and checkside) know. Maybe we got to change our style of playing because we are playing shots that are technically impossible. Then I'd have to excuse for that, and stand into a corner.

Bloody me playing impossible shots. And Jimmy should of course lose one of his maximum breaks, cheating the red in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ifZglGgKGI @ 3:40, the red he played with side

[1lawyer]

It is possible to straighten a pot up using check side...though I am not sure of the physics behind this and many of you have done this type of shot no doubt, so is it not possible to impart side onto the object ball a little perhaps on occasion?

RGC is right when he says the ball throws with side but this is the white ball and not the object ball in the main because the balls are not in contact with each other long enough and Forman is therefore correct also.

Forman the shot I mean is played with check side and follow through cant find an example on you tube sorry.

[Krypton]

You are right (and Forman, if he said the same) that it is not clear / has been discussed, IF and HOW MUCH side is transferred to an object ball. But that's not the point here.

Throw IS definitely a fact, and it affects BOTH balls, not only the white. if important or not - decide yourself after setting up a straight ball and experimenting with all sorts of side, strength, aiming adjustments...

in straight pool (american pool anyway, where pockets ar that |-------------------| tall compared to the ball like that: O hehe), throwing balls helps a lot to make shots that look impossible otherwise.

[RocketRoy1983]

Wow my threads gone mad! Good discussions fellas

Playing a dead straight shot with plenty of side and allowing the side to take before hitting the object ball, running off a cushion and onto your next colour when your opponernt thinks you can only go forward or stop dead is a great feeling and a very difficult shot to master as even the easiest of shots can be missed.

[dantuck_7]

As I seem to miss everything that is further than about 3 inches from the pocket when trying to use side - I don't quite think this is the shot for me!