following slope on backswing

[CoachGavin]

Totally! nothing wrong with Ding and he is one of the best players around. By the way the topic is not just open to coaches as anyones view is interesting. I just knew we had quite a few people on here who are coaches or who are quite interested in the technical side of the game and its quite a technical question. Hope that clears that up.

To be honest main reason for starting topic was out of curiousity to see what people thought was the better backswing and why.

SebastianZ your grip should open as you pull the cue back and it will open more the further you pull it back. This helps to keep it level. All the pros do this although some do it more than others and some also involve the wrist in their action but thats getting off subject.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback so far .

[CoachGavin]

Sorry sebastianZ grip bit should have been addressed to poolqjunkie. I was reading from your extract that you had copied. Please except my sincere apologies.

[Terry Davidson]

I've done this exercise using myself as a template. I've placed a digital video camera dead behind and level with the end of my cue so I can look into the SD socket. It's vital the camera be on the same level as the butt of the cue.

Then I did a slow 'roll the blue in' shot a few times, then a screw-back with medium pace and then a powerful screw-back with the object being to see how the butt of my cue is reacting. Then I duplicated the shots using top-spin, again observing the butt.

I found the butt stayed level and there was no elbow drop on rolling the blue in slowly with either screw or top spin and there was no elbow drop at all but the backswing was only about 3in or so.

For the medium paced screw shot I couldn't see an elbow drop however I was pulling the cue back about 6in and the grip was opening by having the cue push the back 3 fingers off the butt a bit (opening the grip). Unfortunately for me I noticed the butt of the cue came back pretty level with no rising on the backswing but on the delivery it was rising a bit and going to the right (this was a result of gripping the cue to tight and too early in the delivery). Using top-spin the butt of the cue stayed level throughout however the grip did loosen AND the elbow dropped just a bit.

On the 2 power shots I definitely dropped the elbow on both but with more elbow drop on the power run-through however, of course, I have alonger backswing on both shots.

Now, having watched that video I have to work on keeping the grip relaxed until later in the shot and also to ensure I drive my grip to my chest on those low power shots too! However, I can see it appears the natural thing is the elbow drop is in direct proportion to the amount of final backswing or on the delivery side it also seemed I dropped my elbow more on the power shots and this seemed to be natural too and of course delivered more follow-through.

Now, here's a problem I have and can't seem to conquer and I've tried everything I know. I would like to develop a rear pause as I've never had a discernible one. Nic Barrow, Terry/Wayne Griffiths and Steve Davis have offered some drills but nothing seems to work for me. Would anyone out there have a sure-fire way for a long-time player to change that natural rhythm he has to get a rear pause into his cueing technique?

Terry

[checkSide]

Would anyone out there have a sure-fire way for a long-time player to change that natural rhythm he has to get a rear pause into his cueing technique?

Terry

You could try focusing on the cue ball during the backswing, and only switching your eyes to the object ball upon completion of the backswing.

The time it will take for your eyes to change focus from cue to object ball will allow a rear pause to develop.

[CoachGavin]

We seem to have come full circle. I am inclined to agree with Terry in that the more you pull the cue back the more the elbow needs to drop on the backswing to keep it level which is why higgins seems to drop his elbow more than anyone. However as you found out you have the added variable in that the cue is only parallel on topspin shots due to the cushion rail. What do you think about keeping the elbow up whatever the power? The theory behind this is to stop the player dropping below the slope of the cue on the backswing and then hitting up into his armpit on the follow through and impeding his follow through?

Regarding your pause I have the same problem mate. I have found that if i switch my eyes DURING a slow backswing and then have a slight backpause just for timing then I was okay. If people watch me play they say that my pause is hardly there but what matters is that my eyes switch and that I CAN FEEL THE PAUSE so I know when I need to strike the shot.

Look at all the pros and no two players have the same length pause (some dont even look at the object ball on delivery!). If you want to switch on the backpause come up with a little ditty - "1,2,3, pause check white, pause check object ball and deliver" was one I have used. 1,2,3 are the feathers.

If you lived nearer would offer to help but you are a bit far.
Hope this helps.

Gav
When I first begane playing I just had a front pause and so now despite trying very hard I can't use the back pause to switch my eyes because it throws my timing as the pause becomes too long.

[CoachGavin]

Sorry the end should be at the end - trying to type too quick but you can see what i mean.

[SebastianZ]

Sorry sebastianZ grip bit should have been addressed to poolqjunkie. I was reading from your extract that you had copied. Please except my sincere apologies.

No worries CoachGavin!

[Terry Davidson]

Thanks for the tips guys. Actually, Mr. Davis recommended the 'keep the eyes on the cueball/cuetip and then switch to OB and that will be the pause, but it would take months to master if you're not used to it'. (At my age I can't afford to take months as he also said there are some pretty good players around without a rear pause line Ebdon and Mark Allen).

Gavin...I also tried the count but found that threw me off too much.

Here's the really wierd thing...when I am playing really well and get into the 'zone' I do have a natural rear pause and it comes without thinking about it!

The only reason I'm after a rear pause is it facilitates delivering the grip hand right through to the chest even on those slow, pocket-weight shots and that's something I'm not doing consistently.

I've found, as it looks like you have too, if I consistently have a s-l-o-w backswing I feel I have a pause even though nobody else sees it. I think the reason is the cue is not changing direction too quickly and putting in a jerk in the shoulder, and eliminating that quick change in direction is one of the main reasons for the rear pause.

Sorry to get off topic on the elbow drop. I have to admit I haven't noticed that Ding doesn't drop his elbow as I don't have a lot of DVDs of him in action. Right now I'm watch Liang Wenbo and I'm REALLY impressed with how still he remains on any shot, even high power ones. (By the way, he's an elbow dropper on the delivery with a slight drop on the backswing which is a long one. Another lefty with his elbow hanging out like Mark Williams but he can sure pot long balls! I would say better than Ding without the elbow drop).

Terry

[CoachGavin]

I say stick to the slow backswing and just make sure that your eyes get onto the object ball. When you miss an easy one you will usually find that you were not looking at the object ball. A slow backswing will enable you to bring the cue back straight, making it easier to go through straight - if the cue comes back offline you will never deliver it straight on a consistent basis. Like I said I now bring the cue back slow enough to enable my eyes to switch to the object ball and my backpause is very brief. Remember you have to find a natural rhythm for you and by the sound of it you play best when your backpause if very brief.

Hope this helps a bit

[poolqjunkie]

I think everyone has to have a pause at the end before they bring the cue forward, it is just that some are longer than others. My reasoning is that without a pause you simply cannot change the direction of your cue from going back to going forward--you would have to stop, no matter how brief it may be.
I notice that when I am playing well, i will stop until my eyes are focused and fixed on the object ball before I pull my trigger. Some have remarked that I have a distint and long pause but I feel like I do not. So, I have stopped thinking about it. I think there are different time at which you can switch your eyes, and that is why some people have a longer pause than others.
I spend quite a bit of time checking on my cue ball and object ball, and then I switch to my object ball as I pull back. I then fix my focus on the object ball at the end of my back swing, and then I shoot. I like to train my eyes to develope a rhythm when I am practicing, but I do not really try to time my own pause.
I used to shoot with no feathering and have a very short pause but then I started practicing potting the blue while focusing on my eyes to do a switch consistently. I also try to pull my cue back the approximate length as my final back swing, to force myself to develop a feather. Now, I have to feather before I shoot, it is just awkward if I do not. And I somehow have develop a rear pause according to other players, although I am not awared of it being really that long.
When I am at the back of my back swing, I usually take a split second to check the length of my back swing, to make sure I am playing the shot with the "weight" that I want, that might have made my pause a bit longer.
I think as long as your eyes are 100% fixed on your target when you shoot, then you are fine.
I do not think Jimmy White really has a distintive pause at all, but he is very fluid and nice to watch.