following slope on backswing

[CoachGavin]

Hello,

Just wondered peoples thoughts on the backswing. Would especially like to hear from coaches - really three choices:-
1 - should elbow stay up?
2 - drop as cue goes back?
3 - Or grip follows line of cue slope and so elbow may drop or stay up depending on shot?

Regarding number 3-
ie On screw shots when cue will go slightly up as it is pulled back the elbow will probably stay up whereas on a topspin shot where the cue is more parallel the elbow will more likely drop.

I know a number of coaches and theories that say different things on the subject and I know we have a knowledgable number of coaches on here so I think it would be an interesting discussion and might bring up some good points.

Gavin

[Terry Davidson]

Gavin:

I guess I'm closest to your #3. I teach and I believe myself a player should try to keep the cue as level as possible on the backswing. Reasoning is the backswing and delivery are sort of mirror images of each other except the delivery is a lot more dynamic and thus any cue movement either up or down or sideways will tend to be amplified in the delivery phase.

As far as dropping the elbow, I believe it should happen when the cue is pulled far back and this would be to keep the cue as level as possible the whole length of the backswing. So my theory is keep the cue level even on those long backswing shots and you will deliver the cue more consistently.

I realize on the elbow dropping there's some argument amongst coaches, I think primarily from the Steve Davis era as he almost never drops his elbow, however almost every other top pro does drop his elbow on the backswing and the modern version is to drop the elbow on almost every shot since the pros are now pulling the cue back up somewhere between 6-10 inches on every shot and you either have to totally release the grip or else drop the elbow to keep the cue level.

Most people learning the game don't drop the elbow and then develop a short backswing and a tight grip which leads to all sorts of problems. I've even seen a top coaching video from the States where he advocated the butt coming up about 2in at the end of the backswing. This leads to a 'scooping' motion with the cue and you can see this if you watch the modern Steve Davis in slow motion, as he doesn't drop the elbow his cue tip moves up and down, or rather first down and then up when he delivers. Now the question is...is this hurting his consistency? I believe it does as it leads to a shorter backswing and less acceleration through the cueball.

Terry

[CoachGavin]

You have some interesting points especially about steve davis and his elbow not moving on the backswing. This is perhaps something that he finds hard to get out of as when he first began playing his elbow stayed up during the backswing AND delivery and only recently has he started dropping his elbow on delivery.

I know some coaches favour an elbow with as little body movement as possible and this is more the 80's style of playing. I agree that many beginners do end up playing with a tight grip and 'frozen elbow' leading to a reduced follow through but I agree with you and tend to favour the 3rd option in most cases.

Anyone have any further thoughts?

[poolqjunkie]

I love to see more threads like this, especially with knowledgable posters responding with very constructive inputs.
Thanks Terry and Gavin.
May I ask what do you think about Ding's cueing? I do notice that he does not seem to drop his elbow at all, and have a very compact and short--almost "tense"--cueing action. He also does nto seem to open or close his grip that much. Of course I have never seen him play in person so I could be totally wrong. I do realize that camera angles can play tricks on the eyes.

[checkSide]

If you study the top cueists such as Ronnie and Murphy, you will see a definite pattern emerge.

The cue ALWAYS slopes up on the backswing, rarely staying parallel to the bed of the table.

This is followed by a couple of different forward swings, depending on where exactly the cueball is being struck.

The 1st is if they are playing screw, or the lower stuns. In this situation, the cue follows a mirror image of the backswing, sloping down through the cueball on the strike.

The second type of forward swing is if they are playing around centre ball up to topspin. Here the cue slopes down at first at the beginning of the swing, then levels out on the strike, running parallel to the bed on the follow through. This creates the illusion of a slight scooping motion on the swing, and is aided by the drop of the elbow to "level" the cue out.

The consequence of all this is that by allowing the cue to slope up on the backswing, i.e. not perfectly parallel to the bed, they don't have to drop the elbow too much. In fact the only time the elbow is dropped significantly on the backswing, is when it is 10-12 inches long for an extreme power shot.

These are my observations from studying countless hours of Murphy and O'Sullivan's cue actions.

[CoachGavin]

As a quick reply to the last 2 posts.

I think Ding has an action that is closer to the old 80's style of player. Like you say poolqjunkie it is very compact. This means that he does not bring the cue back too much and so the elbow can stay up on the backswing. He then tends to have quite a short follow through which means his elbow does not drop much either on the follow through.

I agree with checkside. Ronnie especially seems to play just as you suggest. I have spoken to his former coach and he believes that the elbow should stay up on the backswing before dropping on the delivery. Ronnie seems to do this apart from when he brings the tip right back to his hand and then his elbow may drop slightly before he goes through with the shot. I have not watched enough of shaun to see but he popped in our club last week so i missed a good opportunity to ask him his thoughts)

To me this is an interesting topic because I play by keeping the elbow up on the backswing. However, theory says that the elbow should drop (especially if the cue is near parallel ie Topspin shots) on the backswing. Despite this from practising with both methods there is no doubt in my mind that keeping the elbow up on the backswing like ronnie gets a cleaner strike for me personally.

checkside, have you got any good suggested footage of shaun murphy cos I could not find any good examples?

[RGCirencester]

Different camera angle to usual, posted by RocketRoy a while ago. Is this any help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIihJtcz91Q

[checkSide]

Hi Gavin.

The footage I have been studying recently is all from this years WSC. I SKY+ed every snooker extra and have them saved on my digibox!

I have recently been watching Murphy vs. Fu. The "scooping illusion" as I call it is very evident when Murphy is playing anything from around centre ball upwards.

I am 100% certain this is due to the cue sloping up on the backswing, before sloping down into the strike then levelling off by the follow through.

This is something I also do naturally. Although from my view behind the cue I always thought I was "scooping", and was cueing badly. It was only after filming my action that I realised the scoop was actually the cue levelling out as my elbow dropped.

I hope this is relevant to your questions mate!

[poolqjunkie]

As a quick reply to the last 2 posts.

I think Ding has an action that is closer to the old 80's style of player. Like you say poolqjunkie it is very compact. This means that he does not bring the cue back too much and so the elbow can stay up on the backswing. He then tends to have quite a short follow through which means his elbow does not drop much either on the follow through.

I agree with checkside. Ronnie especially seems to play just as you suggest. I have spoken to his former coach and he believes that the elbow should stay up on the backswing before dropping on the delivery. Ronnie seems to do this apart from when he brings the tip right back to his hand and then his elbow may drop slightly before he goes through with the shot. I have not watched enough of shaun to see but he popped in our club last week so i missed a good opportunity to ask him his thoughts)

To me this is an interesting topic because I play by keeping the elbow up on the backswing. However, theory says that the elbow should drop (especially if the cue is near parallel ie Topspin shots) on the backswing. Despite this from practising with both methods there is no doubt in my mind that keeping the elbow up on the backswing like ronnie gets a cleaner strike for me personally.

checkside, have you got any good suggested footage of shaun murphy cos I could not find any good examples?

Thank you Gavin.
I actually like Ding;s form and stroke. His short compact action is very simple, but that does not seem to affect his power shots. He also does not seem to use his wrist too much.
Speaking of playing tops, it is what I have problem with. I do feel that my cue does not draw back smoothly, I think it could be because I keep trying to keep my elbow up, and I sometimes elevate my grip a bit to compensate, so I start to go up and down.
I am now trying to open my grip more on my back swing on top, in order to help to keep the cue level while keeping my elbow up.
It brings me to John Higgins, who seems to always drop his elbow on his back swing. Do you think so? But he also as a very compact cueing action and is using a short cue so may be that has something to do with it?
I have tried to play tops that way and it works--when the timing is right; but is totally horrible when my timing is off.

[CoachGavin]

Higgins tends to be the way the theory says the game should be. To keep the cue level the elbow has to drop as you bring the cue back and then again as you go through the white. Higgins dropping his elbow tends to be easy to spot as his backswing is so big (his tip comes back to his bridgehand) and so therefore the action is exaggerated.

Like I said I have tried this and tend to not get as much 'action' on the ball compared to keeping the elbow up as I bring the cue back before dropping it as I deliver the cue through.

I have not seen you play so i cant comment really on your action but if you raise you bridge to aim top of white and then as you bring the cue back try and follow the slope of your cue. You will need to open the back of your hand as the cue comes back to keep the cue from scooping. Try bringing it back slowly and under control. Then deliver the cue, dropping the elbow as you come through. Your grip should finish at your chest.

Any more thoughts would be appreciated as I am interested in what other coaches are teaching and what current professionals are playing which way.

[Nat5guns]

I find it nigh on impossible to play power shots, like deep screws without dropping my elbow. To keep my cue arm up is impossible for me when i play these shots. Another thing as well, I've heard Ronnie talk about how your should concentrate on pushing the cue through with your elbow as this is the most consistent way of cueing. So hard to do!

[CoachGavin]

I agree totally with that. I think most coaches would say that the elbow should drop to get right through the white.

My main question really was concerning the backswing and whether the elbow drops or not as you bring the cue back? For instance if you watch Higgins he drops it quite considerably whereas Ronnie tends to keep his elbow up as he brings the cue back for most shots.

[poolqjunkie]

I am sorry if this kind of go off topic, but what exactly is wrong with Ding's cueing action.
He does not seem to drop his elbow on his back swing, and almost has no drop on most of his shot on his follow through. I do notice that his tip tends to point upward when he finishes when he plays above center.
He pots very well, is a great break builder. Seems to be able to play a wide range of shots. In a lot of his matches, his long potting % is better than Ronnie's. So, I cannot help but wonder why is there so much talk about dropping the elbow on the back swing?
Can you not just open your grip on most of the shots?
Thank you in advanced. I am sorry as I know you want to get advice/feedback from other coaches and pros, and I am either.

[SebastianZ]

I ve been studying ronnie's cue action for a while, I ve found out that his forearm is more verdical than other players - ie, the wrist is on the same verdical line as the elbow whereas john higgins' writ is slighty towards the cue butt. that's why the backswing for o'sullivan doesnt look as exagirated as higgins'. also o'sullivan releases his thumb after delivery of a power follow through which makes the cue a lot levelled than it should be without it.

[SebastianZ]

I am sorry if this kind of go off topic, but what exactly is wrong with Ding's cueing action.
He does not seem to drop his elbow on his back swing, and almost has no drop on most of his shot on his follow through. I do notice that his tip tends to point upward when he finishes when he plays above center.
He pots very well, is a great break builder. Seems to be able to play a wide range of shots. In a lot of his matches, his long potting % is better than Ronnie's. So, I cannot help but wonder why is there so much talk about dropping the elbow on the back swing?
Can you not just open your grip on most of the shots?
Thank you in advanced. I am sorry as I know you want to get advice/feedback from other coaches and pros, and I am either.

Nothing wrong with DING's cue action AT ALL!!! however you should realize that with o'sullivan's success, more ppl ( fans) tend to imitate his cue action. it's just like players in 90's tend to learn hendry's cue action!!!!

having said that, on the other note, o'sullivan's cue action does appear smoother and more effortless thans other players. and the cue ball does have more reactions under the o'sullivan's follow through (caused by elbow drop) , that's what started the topic, i think !!!!