Feathering

[DandyA]

Don't worry, as some beginners do, that except for dead-in shots BOB is not really the line of aim of the cue which is actually offset anywhere up to 1-1/32nd of an inch, depending on the severity of the angle of the shot. (Have I confused you yet?) Your brain will sort that out through feedback, which you will get if you remain down on the shot with your cue extended for a second or two until the object ball (hopefully) drops into the pocket.

what's this feedback you mention then? if it is not to do micro-adjustments to the line of delivery of the cue? and if these micro-adjustments aren't necessary, why do all players, including pros, spend a few seconds down on the shot before they deliver the cue?

and why shouldn't I worry? I can identify BOB, I can deliver the cue down my chosen line of aim pretty well and pretty accurately 9 times out of 10 ... my big problem on a snooker table is knowing how much to aim off the BOB line to allow for the simple fact the cue ball is spherical and 2 1/16in in diameter (or whatever it is in new fangled millipedes) ...

you say "don't worry about it" ... it's all I worry about on a snooker table ... you could have the straightest delivery of any player and you can clearly see the BOB ... you still won't pot a ball unless you worry about the offset you say "don't worry about" ...

I also play a lot of UK 8ball pool and I admit I worry less, for the simple reason the pockets are a lot bigger and a lot closer so there's a lot more margin for error so this "offset" which we shouldn't worry about matters much less - although it still applies ...

[Terry Davidson]

DandyA:

And I'm telling you that you shouldn't worry about it.

Feedback is a simple process where a person tries something the first time, doesn't manage it correctly but observes the RESULTS. He then tries it again, making a minor adjustment based on his previous observation and perhaps there's still an error because he's over-compensated so he tries it the third time and gets it right based on the feedback he got from the first 2 attempts.

An example - you've just gotten your learner's permit and have a big red 'L' on the back of your car. For the first time behind the wheel you go to an older part of the city which has very narrow streets and you have to go around the block making 4 consecutive left turns, which you've never done before. You take the first left and end up driving over the curb (too sharp), at the 2nd left turn you know your turned too sharp the first time so you compensate for that and this time end up going over into the right lane. On the 3rd left turn you know the correct amount is somewhere in the middle between your first two attempts and you nail it perfectly staying in the centre of the turn. That's a simple feedback process.

So now, relating it to snooker for you. If you attempt a shot that you normally don't make more than 30% of the time and you stay down at the end of the delivery, with your cue extended and your grip hand in contact with your chest, keeping your head and body still and OBSERVING with your eyes ONLY your brain will get the feedback it requires for you to UNCONCIOUSLY correct that set-off aiming point of the cue from BOB.

If you do this one thing every time you take any shot (like Shaun Murphy or John Higgins or even Ronnie most times) and whatever you do, DON'T STAND UP AS SOON AS YOU'VE HIT THE CUEBALL, it will not only give your brain the feedback loop it needs to get the aim correct the next time but this will also encourage you to stay still throughout the shot and you WILL play better, if you give it a little time.

Thinking conciously about the set-off between BOB and the cue line and trying to work that out somehow (mathmatically maybe?) I believe will just mess you up big-time. Just concentrate on delivering the cue straight consistently and observing the results each shot and improvement will come quickly.

As a practice exercise, place an object ball on the blue spot and the cueball on the green or yellow spot and try and cut the object ball into the same side top (black) pocket. This is a difficult shot for anyone, probably around a 1/8th cut or so (who knows or cares what fraction it is?). Concentrate on staying still and delivering the cue straight and stay down on the shot and observe with your eyes only whether you over-cut or under-cut the ball. Set it up again, doing the exact same thing and observe again and keep doing that until you start potting the ball perhaps 70% of the time. This has now become a shot you can make 70% of the time and is a shot you should go for, depending on the state of the match.

Terry

[checkSide]

what's this feedback you mention then? if it is not to do micro-adjustments to the line of delivery of the cue? and if these micro-adjustments aren't necessary, why do all players, including pros, spend a few seconds down on the shot before they deliver the cue?

and why shouldn't I worry? I can identify BOB, I can deliver the cue down my chosen line of aim pretty well and pretty accurately 9 times out of 10 ... my big problem on a snooker table is knowing how much to aim off the BOB line to allow for the simple fact the cue ball is spherical and 2 1/16in in diameter (or whatever it is in new fangled millipedes) ...

you say "don't worry about it" ... it's all I worry about on a snooker table ... you could have the straightest delivery of any player and you can clearly see the BOB ... you still won't pot a ball unless you worry about the offset you say "don't worry about" ...

I also play a lot of UK 8ball pool and I admit I worry less, for the simple reason the pockets are a lot bigger and a lot closer so there's a lot more margin for error so this "offset" which we shouldn't worry about matters much less - although it still applies ...

Dandy.

TAKE A LOOK AT THIS.

[noel]

TAKE A LOOK AT THIS.

checkSide.... very cool... thanks mate!


"Get back to the Presents."

"There were the Useful Presents: engulfing mufflers of the old coach days, and mittens made for giant sloths; zebra scarfs of a substance like silky gum that could be tug-o'-warred down to the galoshes; blinding tam-o'-shanters like patchwork tea cozies and bunny-suited busbies and balaclavas for victims of head-shrinking tribes; from aunts who always wore wool next to the skin there were mustached and rasping vests that made you wonder why the aunts had any skin left at all; and once I had a little crocheted nose bag from an aunt now, alas, no longer whinnying with us. And pictureless books in which small boys, though warned with quotations not to, would skate on Farmer Giles' pond and did and drowned; and books that told me everything about the wasp, except why." [ and best of all a Billiard Aiming Calculator! ]
*




=o)

Noel


* From Dylan Thomas' A Child's Christmas in Wales

[checkSide]

Glad you liked it Noel!

Cheers

[Terry Davidson]

A couple more points for DandyA:

When the pros are down on the shot and do the 'front pause' just before their final backswing they do NOT adjust their aim. If they feel the aim isn't correct they will likely stand back up and re-aquire the line of aim. The front pause is done just to confirm everything is good to go or in some cases to lock their eyes on the object ball.

If you were to ask each of the top 16 pros how they aim, their answer will be 'through experience' (Nic Barrow actually asked them and they all said the same thing). By experience, they meant adjusting to the feedback they get through observing what happens when they try a shot.

If you are delivering the cue 90% of the time accurately and straight then you must be at professional level as far as skill goes as the pros only get to around 92-94% as seen by the pot success percentage they show on the Beeb. I wish I could have a 90+% consistent and straight cue delivery.

But I also have a question for you. How do you calculate the amount of offset on any individual pot when you're in a match? Do you use the 'ghost ball' covering a specific sector of the object ball? Do you somehow calculate it and say 'it's 81degrees' (although I wouldn't know how to do that). Do you use 'it's somewhere between 1/2-ball and 1/4-ball and I think it's about 14/32nds'? How long does all this take you? Do you make small adjustments when you are down on the table at the front pause address position?

Getting your brain to conciously calculate the offset is a difficult thing to do, especially when that amazing machine will do it automatically for you from experience.

Again, if you stay down on the shot on completion and get the feedback you won't have to worry about the aiming offset between BOB and the actual line of the cue as your brain will do that automatically for you.

You can believe this or not, it's up to you.

Terry

[Sleepysheep]

I don't think it matters if you feather or not.

[noel]

I don't think it matters if you feather or not.

That's what the chicken said.


=o)

Noel

[DandyA]

DandyA:

And I'm telling you that you shouldn't worry about it.

Feedback is a simple process where a person tries something the first time, doesn't manage it correctly but observes the RESULTS. He then tries it again, making a minor adjustment based on his previous observation and perhaps there's still an error because he's over-compensated so he tries it the third time and gets it right based on the feedback he got from the first 2 attempts.

An example - you've just gotten your learner's permit and have a big red 'L' on the back of your car. For the first time behind the wheel you go to an older part of the city which has very narrow streets and you have to go around the block making 4 consecutive left turns, which you've never done before. You take the first left and end up driving over the curb (too sharp), at the 2nd left turn you know your turned too sharp the first time so you compensate for that and this time end up going over into the right lane. On the 3rd left turn you know the correct amount is somewhere in the middle between your first two attempts and you nail it perfectly staying in the centre of the turn. That's a simple feedback process.

So now, relating it to snooker for you. If you attempt a shot that you normally don't make more than 30% of the time and you stay down at the end of the delivery, with your cue extended and your grip hand in contact with your chest, keeping your head and body still and OBSERVING with your eyes ONLY your brain will get the feedback it requires for you to UNCONCIOUSLY correct that set-off aiming point of the cue from BOB.

If you do this one thing every time you take any shot (like Shaun Murphy or John Higgins or even Ronnie most times) and whatever you do, DON'T STAND UP AS SOON AS YOU'VE HIT THE CUEBALL, it will not only give your brain the feedback loop it needs to get the aim correct the next time but this will also encourage you to stay still throughout the shot and you WILL play better, if you give it a little time.

Thinking conciously about the set-off between BOB and the cue line and trying to work that out somehow (mathmatically maybe?) I believe will just mess you up big-time. Just concentrate on delivering the cue straight consistently and observing the results each shot and improvement will come quickly.

As a practice exercise, place an object ball on the blue spot and the cueball on the green or yellow spot and try and cut the object ball into the same side top (black) pocket. This is a difficult shot for anyone, probably around a 1/8th cut or so (who knows or cares what fraction it is?). Concentrate on staying still and delivering the cue straight and stay down on the shot and observe with your eyes only whether you over-cut or under-cut the ball. Set it up again, doing the exact same thing and observe again and keep doing that until you start potting the ball perhaps 70% of the time. This has now become a shot you can make 70% of the time and is a shot you should go for, depending on the state of the match.

Terry

thanks Terry ... I understand a lot better now I think what you are saying ... I guess the reason for confusion was with the word "worry" ...

you said "don't worry about it" which I took to mean "don't bother about it" but now I think what you're saying is "don't get neurotic about it" with which I completely agree ...

as you say, if the little darling doesn't go in the hole this time, as long as you delivered the cue straight where you intended, your subconscious will learn ...

I completely agree with that ...

[edit] ... my response above is to Terry's posting as quoted in my post ... I see Terry has posted again (our posts crossed in the ether) - just reading that now

[DandyA]

Dandy.

TAKE A LOOK AT THIS.

so Mr CheckSide ... I guess you approve of me getting all the common cut-angles tattoed on my bridge arm then? I personally think it's pure genius and scares the **** out of my opponents ...

for instance, if I want the object ball to go 30 degrees off the line of aim and the cue ball to go 34 degrees the other way, I just stare at my bridge arm for a while and say "that's a half ball pot! easy peasy" ...

I'm not sure what I'll do when I make the pro tour ... I've heard they have to play in long sleeved shirts ... bummer

[DandyA]

A couple more points for DandyA:

When the pros are down on the shot and do the 'front pause' just before their final backswing they do NOT adjust their aim. If they feel the aim isn't correct they will likely stand back up and re-aquire the line of aim. The front pause is done just to confirm everything is good to go or in some cases to lock their eyes on the object ball.

If you were to ask each of the top 16 pros how they aim, their answer will be 'through experience' (Nic Barrow actually asked them and they all said the same thing). By experience, they meant adjusting to the feedback they get through observing what happens when they try a shot.

If you are delivering the cue 90% of the time accurately and straight then you must be at professional level as far as skill goes as the pros only get to around 92-94% as seen by the pot success percentage they show on the Beeb. I wish I could have a 90+% consistent and straight cue delivery.

But I also have a question for you. How do you calculate the amount of offset on any individual pot when you're in a match? Do you use the 'ghost ball' covering a specific sector of the object ball? Do you somehow calculate it and say 'it's 81degrees' (although I wouldn't know how to do that). Do you use 'it's somewhere between 1/2-ball and 1/4-ball and I think it's about 14/32nds'? How long does all this take you? Do you make small adjustments when you are down on the table at the front pause address position?

Getting your brain to conciously calculate the offset is a difficult thing to do, especially when that amazing machine will do it automatically for you from experience.

Again, if you stay down on the shot on completion and get the feedback you won't have to worry about the aiming offset between BOB and the actual line of the cue as your brain will do that automatically for you.

You can believe this or not, it's up to you.

Terry

Terry, with due respect to you, cos I appreciate your postings and the insight you have ...

where on earth did you get the idea I calculate angles as say 3.142 degrees off a 1/4 ball pot (or whatever) which means I should allow sin(3.142) - cos(22.4) which equals aiming 2.9932mm left of centre ... I really don't think I ever said that ...

for the record, whilst standing I look at the BOB, I choose my line of aim (whilst also standing) using my subconscious ... then I get down on the shot and may choose to micro-adjust the line of aim until my subconscious says "yep, that looks good, go right arm, hit it" ... by micro-adjust, I mean I might move the butt of the cue a millimetre or two left or right ...

you seem to think I said I have a 90% pot success ... no way, Jose! what I said is that 9 times out of 10 I feel I have delivered the cue fairly accurately down my chosen line of aim ... I didn't say it but that results in maybe an overall 30% pot success - I only play snooker one evening a week and my HB is a lowly 25 ...

so the point I was trying to make was you can deliver the cue accurately but you still need to learn the offsets ... I've posted above but I felt your comment "don't worry about it" unhelpful because as far as I am concerned, that's all there is to worry about ... but as I mentioned above, it could all come down to what you mean by "worry" ...

[poolqjunkie]

I know this thread is about feathering so may be it is a bit off topic, but it is in response to what was said so please bear with me if you don't mind.
I want to say that I actually aim by looking at the angles, not ghost ball at all.
So, I would look at the angle, and say to myself "this is a 3/4 ball," and then I will get down and hit 3/4 of the object ball. If I miss even though I have hit where I aim, then I know either it was not a 3/4, or that my 3/4 aiming point is wrong on the object ball, which happens sometimes with all the glare and what not on the ball.
I know it sounds ridiculous to say a pot is 35.67 degree or something like that, but since the pocket is actually bigger than a ball, most of the pots fall in, at least to me, about one of 16 different angles--and that is how I aim.
I used to use ghost ball and I was really bad. Now, with this method I am much better.
I practice potting the black, pink and blue from all angles, in order to memorize the angles so I know what it is when I see it. I used to spend many hours doing that, and I still do.
The biggest problem I have had is sometimes the balls are very "bright" and has lot of glare so it is hard to aim the long pots precisely. Also, sometimes I judge the angle incorrectly due to some illusions formed by the rails and "blind pocket" and things like that. I think these problems might happen to other people regardless of aiming system that they use.
So, I do not write the angles on my hand, or bring a projector to the table, but I do use the angles all the time when I aim, it has become very natural after a while, especially the thicker angles, so it is almost automatic now.
When the angle is the same no matter where the shot is, I am confident that I know where to aim and make the ball; while with ghost ball every shot is like a different shot and therefore is more of a trial and error thing for me.
I am not sure if other people aim like this, just thought I will throw it in, since aiming by angles was mentioned.
When i watch some folks play in the club, I am under the impression that they have no idea where they should aim. They would miss and miss and miss and never improve. They seem to think however that they know where to hit the ball, although they are very inconsistent and off by a large margin. I do not think it is always due to a bad stroke. If I ask them to make the black off the spot say 10 times, with the cue ball just a few feet away, 3/4 hit, they will miss and then make it and then miss...I think every time they look at the shot they are guessing where to aim with no certainty at all.

[DandyA]

I know this thread is about feathering so may be it is a bit off topic, but it is in response to what was said so please bear with me if you don't mind.
I want to say that I actually aim by looking at the angles, not ghost ball at all.
So, I would look at the angle, and say to myself "this is a 3/4 ball," and then I will get down and hit 3/4 of the object ball. If I miss even though I have hit where I aim, then I know either it was not a 3/4, or that my 3/4 aiming point is wrong on the object ball, which happens sometimes with all the glare and what not on the ball.
I know it sounds ridiculous to say a pot is 35.67 degree or something like that, but since the pocket is actually bigger than a ball, most of the pots fall in, at least to me, about one of 16 different angles--and that is how I aim.
I used to use ghost ball and I was really bad. Now, with this method I am much better.
I practice potting the black, pink and blue from all angles, in order to memorize the angles so I know what it is when I see it. I used to spend many hours doing that, and I still do.
The biggest problem I have had is sometimes the balls are very "bright" and has lot of glare so it is hard to aim the long pots precisely. Also, sometimes I judge the angle incorrectly due to some illusions formed by the rails and "blind pocket" and things like that. I think these problems might happen to other people regardless of aiming system that they use.
So, I do not write the angles on my hand, or bring a projector to the table, but I do use the angles all the time when I aim, it has become very natural after a while, especially the thicker angles, so it is almost automatic now.
When the angle is the same no matter where the shot is, I am confident that I know where to aim and make the ball; while with ghost ball every shot is like a different shot and therefore is more of a trial and error thing for me.
I am not sure if other people aim like this, just thought I will throw it in, since aiming by angles was mentioned.
When i watch some folks play in the club, I am under the impression that they have no idea where they should aim. They would miss and miss and miss and never improve. They seem to think however that they know where to hit the ball, although they are very inconsistent and off by a large margin. I do not think it is always due to a bad stroke. If I ask them to make the black off the spot say 10 times, with the cue ball just a few feet away, 3/4 hit, they will miss and then make it and then miss...I think every time they look at the shot they are guessing where to aim with no certainty at all.

yep good points PQ ... ghost ball does nothing for me but I can see why people want to use it ... I personally use BOB and then hope I guessed the offset right ...

I'll occasionally think 1/2 ball especially since I found the great billiards tutorials on www.EnglishBilliards.org ... used one of their "trick" shots tonight in my pool match (deep screw double kiss with loads of side) ... great site!

anyway, getting back to feathering, Terry seems to imply that none of the professionals "micro-adjust" their aim during feathering ... well what are they doing then? it's certainly what I do, it's a tad too late to think about cueing straight when you have a 3/4 (72.89 degree pot actually) to win the match for the North Star pool team ...

and, of course, I very much doubt pro-snooker players need to worry about their cueing action ... so what was Selby doing for instance Terry with his left a bit, right a bit head movement? you are trying to tell me that was something to do with his right arm delivery and nothing to do with sighting? I personally would say, he's checking that if he moves his head a little right, it looks too thin, if he moves his head a little bit left, it looks too thick ... ie, he's micro-adjusting his line of aim ... if it looks to thin on both views, he'll micro-adjust his cue and try again ...

what I personally do, and did tonight, is choose my line of aim whilst standing, micro-adjust when down on the shot, and then trust to my right arm to deliver the cue where I've chosen ... I'm by no means great, but the one thing I will not "worry" about is my cue action cos if I do "worry" about it, it's bound to go wrong ...

North Star beat the Happy Landing B team 6-3 tonight by the way ... I won both my games although I can't say I was at my best by any means ...

[noel]

A. ... is choose my line of aim whilst standing, micro-adjust when down on the shot, and then trust to my right arm to deliver the cue where I've chosen ...

B. North Star beat the Happy Landing B team 6-3 tonight by the way ... I won both my games although I can't say I was at my best by any means ...

I agree with what you say DandyA.

A. Standing, body in adjudged correct line with the shot... stepping precisely into the shot is "finding the right row".
Placing bridgehand accurately with cue in the correct aiming line is "moving towards the right seat".
Lowering body, fitting it and the chin to the cue is "easing into the correct seat".
Sighting the cuetip to the cueball to "micro-adjust" the exact striking point is like "stretching my legs",
while feathering as need be is like "settling in to the most comfortable postion"...
relaxing with an exhale, eyes fixed on the object ball...
LET THE GAMES (strike) BEGIN!

B. Congrats on tonights win!!!!


=o)

Noel

[poolqjunkie]

Dandy, I dont think you understand correctly what Terry was saying.
And although I do not know Mark Selby, I can say with 99% certainty he was not looking at the shot saying, "it looks too thin" then moving his head to the right saying "it looks too thick..." then moving his head back saying "yeah I think its about right." before he delivers his cue. He knows his line of aim before he even gets down.
Also, if you are looking at the "offset" as you call it, you are using ghost ball method, which is basically trying to visualize the half diameter of the "ghost" cue ball as it makes contact with the object ball. At least that is what I meant when I said "ghost ball."
For myself, when I feather, I am adjusting the weight of my shot and making sure my cue is on my line of aim (this is not however the same as trying to find the exact line of aim). I am kind of telling my brain how hard I want to hit this shot, and preparing my mind/body to execute the shot the way I want to. Feathering also allows me to make sure I am striking the cue ball where I want to, focusing my eyes on the exact point of aim on my object ball, and staying there, before I pull my trigger. When I feel like I am ready, I pull the trigger and deliver my cue. I would imagine most players are doing something similiar to this when they are feathering.

From what you said, you feel like you can deliver your cue straight 90% of the time, and that is very amazing because most pros cannot even do that consistently. Sounds like all you need to do is to find the correct line of aim and you cannot miss. If your pot success rate is only about 30% by your account and your high break is only 25, then perhaps you should look into aiming with another method as what you are using now obviously is not working as well as it should.