Feathering

[Terry Davidson]

poolqjunkie:

Only kidding...nudge, nudge - wink, wink

Just added my bank account to my Paypal account as I'm selling some cues (not the Aurora one-piece) and need to receive money from overseas and figure that's the way to go.

I'll see how that 3% commission works once I get verified with PayPal.

See my thread on cues for sale if you know of anyone who is looking for a cue

Terry

[DandyA]

Terry. Do you use any "feel" as feedback to determine if you cued straight.

i.e. The feel of the cue hitting an exact point on your chest. The feel of your wrist coming through the shot etc.???

errr well I can only speak for myself but the biggest feedback I use is whether the object ball went pretty much where I wanted it to and whether the cue ball also did the same ...

I'm not really sure if my back hand comes through and hits my 9th or 10th rib on follow through and anyway why does that matter? surely, as long as you have delivered your bat straight, down the line you intended, following through a little bit to make sure you don't decelarate the cue as it contacts the cue ball, then surely that's all that matters?

[Terry Davidson]

DandyA:

Now you are preaching blasphemy!!!!!! (by saying - 'I'm not really sure if my back hand comes through and hits my 9th or 10th rib on follow through and anyway why does that matter? surely, as long as you have delivered your bat straight, down the line you intended, following through a little bit to make sure you don't decelarate the cue as it contacts the cue ball, then surely that's all that matters?')

AAAaaaarrrrrgggghhhhhh.

For ABSOLUTELY EVERY SHOT (except where there's little distance between object ball and cueball) it is VITAL to bring your hand all the way through to your chest, and for a right hander that should be right around the right nipple or just beside it (depends how much a player drops his elbow). Although your reasoning is correct in saying as long as you don't decelerate but by not bringing the hand all the way through to the chest you DO start decelerating a little too early in the delivery.

Now, how does one decelerate the cue? Answer - by gripping it tighter in order to slow it down. Your wonderful brain will prepare for that early deceleration before you get all the way through the cueball and the only way to ensure you never, ever do that with 100% certainty is to get the grip hand all the way to the chest which is where you tighten the grip to stop the cue shooting across the table. When you tighten your grip on the cue you also move the butt either up/down or sideways depending on the type of grip you have. The grip tightens on the cue when the grip hand hits the chest, and not before and then you'll be 'steering' the cue.

Try playing a dead-in black off its spot to a top pocket with the cueball tight on the side cushion and try it first your way at medium pace and then try it where you ensure you bring the grip all the way to the chest. The second way should prove to be more accurate and positive.

Of course, you seem to have your own philosophy on cueing so maybe that shorter follow-through will work to perfection for you...BUT...if you have any desire to improve to be a regular 100-break player then you might want to develop a cue action which provides you with a wider variety of power shots, as they are needed from time to time in any big break.

On the other hand if you just want to enjoy the skill level you're at presently and have a frame or two with your mates while enjoying a couple of wobbly-pops then that's OK too, as long as you love the game.

Terry

[DandyA]

Terry ... good stuff this ... I appreciate this discussion and your input to it ...

I personally find trying to make a 7" to 9" follow through (which I may be wrong but I think you mentioned somewhere on a different thread you aim for) is very counter-productive ... it requires dropping my elbow massively which causes a loss in accuracy ...

Call me small minded but 3" is fine for me ... with that, I can hit right through the white as if it wasn't there, which greatly improves accuracy for the simple reason the bat goes right down my chosen line of aim ... I agree this is very important, you do need to get through the cue ball ...

I'm not precisely sure why my cue stops ... I guess it's because I've chosen to decelarate it rather than it hitting my chest ... which may be wrong of course but I'd still maintain the crucial stuff is getting the bat through, dead straight, from the end of the backwing to maybe 2" past the cue-ball ...

Do that, and you'll be pretty accurate ...

DandyA's tip of the day ... can't hit the little darling dead straight? try a shorter backswing as Marco Fu plays and Terry Friffiths advocates ... less margin for error, you see ...

[DandyA]

DandyA: Now you are preaching blasphemy!!!!!!

well I wish I were but I don't think so ... this on the other hand is blasphemy - well it would be if it were about Jesus (which it is not) ...

off topic but always well worth watching ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1loyjm4SOa0

[Terry Davidson]

DandyA:

There are 4 basic principles involved in playing good snooker and achieving continuous improvement (which most players desire). The 4th one is 'always bring the grip hand through to the chest and leave the cue extended in that position until the shot is completed'. I am not aware of any good coach or player who doesn't either teach that or play that way.

The last time I watched Marco Fu, although his feathers are almost non-existant, his final backswing is longer. The rule for most players is the length of the backswing is proportional to the amount of power being applied to the shot. This principle is the same for any ball sport where you're stiking with power, like golf, tennis, baseball, cricket, hockey - you name it. However, most of the better snooker players nowadays use a longer backswing for most shots, Mark Selby being the best example of this.

Terry/Wayne Griffiths at the Matchroom no longer advocate a short final backswing.

My normal follow-through on a medium paced shot is about 6in and on a power shot, especially a deep screw, it goes to around 9-10in because I drop my elbow. This is very similar to what Joe Davis originally advocated when he discovered a different stroke was required for snooker power shots as comparted to his billiards game where that amount of power was never required. All of the top professionals will drop their elbows to increase their follow-through on a power shot, even Steve Davis who doesn't normally drop his elbow.

As I said, you can decide to ignore these principles and stay at your same skill level, that's your decision, but I'm hoping there are no young players coming to you for technique advice as your own technique is not very conducive to learning and improving at snooker.

The hand hitting the chest gives a player consistency during the delivery.

Terry

[poolqjunkie]

Hi Terry,
You are a very patient man.
Going back to the hitting the chest comment, I do find that it helps me to "finish" the hit. But I am used to employing a short back swing for my soft shots and a long back swing for my power shots. I have about 5 different length of back swing in general.
When I use a short back swing, it is sometimes very short, like may be 1-2 inches, for shots which I want to make at pocket weight. I find that I do not have to try to stop my cue short on purpose when i use a shorter back swing, it comes natural to stop short when my back swing is short, and I can keep my same timing on all my shots that way. My thought is just "follow through" when I use a shorter back swing for the softer shots.
For those shots, I cannot see how my grip can possibly hit my chest.
I notice Liang and Ding also play sometimes with a very short back swing whereas they would keep their elbow up on the follow though(very short) and the grip barely moves forward a couple inches.
I on the other hand notice players such as John Higgins who would use a very long back swing and sort of just play a very soft screw to hold his cue ball. Ronnie also does kind of a drag shot with a long back swing when he plays a softer shot.
I have tried this type of shots with a longer back swing, but I notice for myself I need to sort of hit the ball slightly differently--I tend to use my wrist a bit more, and I tighten my grip a bit sooner as well.
You mentioned that Terry no longer advocates using a short back swing. Could you please elaborate a bit more on that if you dont mind? I am interested to know the pros and cons of a shorter back swing.
Thank you so much for your taking the time to share your knowledge.

[Terry Davidson]

poolqjunkie:

'Patience is a virtue' as my mother often told me when I was a bratty kid!

OK...backswing length first...my own theory is the length of the final backswing should be proportional to the amount of power you're going to use on the shot, so shorter for those pocket-weight shots and longer for meduim pace and above and even longer for the really high power shots. (I have to add though that there will be some pros who would disagree with this, among them Mark Selby, Shaun Murphy, John Higgins and Ronnie O'Sullivan who all use a longer backswing even on low power shots).

I tend to agree with DandyA a little bit in that the longer the backswing the more chance you are taking to lose control of the cue and if a player decides to use the longer backswing it MUST be slow enough so that he has positive control of it with ABSOLUTELY no body movement. All the players mentioned above have a very slow and deliberate backswing.

Secondly...bringing the hand to the chest...unless it really throws off the natural rhythm you've developed over the years I would still recommend to a new student who hasn't developed the habit of stopping early on slow shots that he brings his hand all the way to the chest for consistency. The brain being the marvelous thing it is, when you stop the cue short from the chest you have to tighten the hand to stop it. On a slow shot the hand tightening isn't with a lot of pressure so 'no harm - no foul' but it's still a good habit to groove to get the hand all the way to the chest on all shots.

Not doing this is a primary reason most shots from off the cushion are missed, because the player is choked up on the cue and 'jabs' at the cueball, whereas if he develops the habit of bringing the hand all the way through to the chest there is no premature clutching of the cue, even though off the cushion the follow-through might be only 2in or so past the cueball.

Dropping the elbow is not necessary on slow shots and therefore the follow-through would only be around 4-5in, depending on the player's physique (how big-chested he/she is)

Hope this helps

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

poolqjunkie:

On the Terry/Wayne Griffiths Matchroom thing...I recently participated in an on-line video coaching trial with Matchroom and one of the perks was I got 2 free analysis videos from Terry and Wayne (mostly Wayne I think).

One of the few items he mentioned in my technique was 'too short and fast a backswing' and 'no rear pause'. After receiving the video analysis I had a nice long conference call with Wayne where we discussed the backswing plus he showed me some videos of the better pros taken at the Matchroom and directly behind the player and Matchroom definitely advocates now that the backswing should be proportional to the power to be used (which is a natural function for any ball sport, look at a tennis serve or a slap shot in hockey)

Terry

[dpdubai]

DandyA:

I'll just add this plus give you a challenge to try if you can.

It's been my experience both as a player and a coach that the vast majority of pots are missed because of a flaw in the mechanics causes the cue to be delivered off line. It's also been my experience that all players, with a little experience, are able to determine the correct line of aim (BOB) and in general are able to determine where to aim the cue, although this takes a bit more experience.

I dunno, maybe you are a one-off on having difficulty automatically (unconciously) determining the correct line of aim of the cue through proper feedback.

Here's the challenge...if you can get a digital video camera and a tripod, take it down to the club and set up the following shot. Place an object ball 1ft from the middle pocket level with the blue spot, place the cueball 18in or so from the other middle pocket level with the blue so the shot is straight in. Set the cueball so you have a comfortable hand on the table shot.

Now set the camera up to be at the exact same height as the butt of your cue when it's in the address position so the camera is looking right into the SD socket. Turn the camera on to record and take the shot, hard enough to screw the white back to the pocket underneath your chest. Repeat the shot 10 times.

If, as you say, you deliver the cue straight 90% of the time then using any video software (like Windows Media) watch the shot on your computer IN SLOW MOTION and place the end of a pen (not too sharp though) on the screen where the SD socket is in the address position.

On the backswing the socket may rise about one inch at the end and on the delivery it might also rise (or even fall a bit in some cases), BUT IF IT MOVES SIDEWAYS AT ALL IN EITHER THE BACKSWING OR DELIVERY then that means you are NOT delivering that cue as straight as you think you do.

I suspect you will get a surprise to see what's actually happening to the cue. My own assessment is if you are only at the 25-break class then you are DEFINITELY NOT delivering that cue straight and this slow-motion video will show you some glaring issues which you should sort out and once you do you will see your high break rising, and quickly.

When I got my digital camera (for coaching) I was absolutely amazed I could even pot a ball with what I saw for myself. The butt of my cue was coming back to the left and going through to the right even more because the delivery is a lot more dynamic than the backswing. My head was coming a bit up on the backswing and there was shoulder movement on the delivery to compensate for the crooked backswing. When you consider I have a lot of centuries in match play, including 3 x 147's, then it's a wonder I was able to do that with all the movement. (I might not have had that in the late 80's though, but I sure as hell had it when I came back in 2005).

In addition, when I record my students, some of whom are regular century makers, and I have a software program where I can analyse technique on a frame-by-frame basis, they are amazed at what's really happening and how they are compensating for some flaw or other. You also see some things it's absolutely impossible to either feel or see just by watching a player. I also use this software program to analyse the pros, especially when they miss a pot they should have got.

One hint...most technique problems originate during the backswing (believe it or not) so watch that carefully if you are able to do this.

Terry

Terry,


Once again I find myself "stalking" your old posts and having light bulb moments at many of your technique descriptions.

I have a question on this one about the delivery going off straight. In your opinion what is the most common cause of this?

Assuming a player is keeping the rest of his body relatively still and not jumping up on the shot then I'd guess too fast a backswing and the grip would be the most likely culprits?

I ask just so I can bring into my own practice sessions, I'm working the backswing just now but I'm aware my grip could be a factor aswell.


Thanks

[Terry Davidson]

You are correct is assuming most cueing problems originate in the backswing, with it normally being off-line or else too quick and causing movement in the upper body.

This situation usually developes from having too tight a grip, although not always. There is no one 'correct' grip as long as a player has positive control of the cue and the grip is still nice and loose.

However, in the backswing area, it must be slow enough so the player can positively control it and draw the cue back exactly stright. Some players are assisted by having the cue against the chest, but not too tightly as that will restrict follow-through or encourage the player to bring his grip hand around his chest. Remember to keep the right elbow as high as you can without bringing the cue too tightly into the chest.

The grip shouldn't tighten until after the cueball is struck.

The grip should be loose enough so the cue can be easily pulled through it with the other hand. Plus, you should form your final grip when standing behind the shot and ensure the grip hand is over the right foot in the address position.

In addition, (for a right-handed player) the cue should run underneath the right shoulder, approx 1-2inches to the right of the right nipple. A lot of players keep the cue too far underneath their bodies which encourages an off-straight backswing.

Terry

[brendan147]

You are correct is assuming most cueing problems originate in the backswing, with it normally being off-line or else too quick and causing movement in the upper body.

This situation usually developes from having too tight a grip, although not always. There is no one 'correct' grip as long as a player has positive control of the cue and the grip is still nice and loose.

However, in the backswing area, it must be slow enough so the player can positively control it and draw the cue back exactly stright. Some players are assisted by having the cue against the chest, but not too tightly as that will restrict follow-through or encourage the player to bring his grip hand around his chest. Remember to keep the right elbow as high as you can without bringing the cue too tightly into the chest.

The grip shouldn't tighten until after the cueball is struck.

The grip should be loose enough so the cue can be easily pulled through it with the other hand. Plus, you should form your final grip when standing behind the shot and ensure the grip hand is over the right foot in the address position.

In addition, (for a right-handed player) the cue should run underneath the right shoulder, approx 1-2inches to the right of the right nipple. A lot of players keep the cue too far underneath their bodies which encourages an off-straight backswing.

Terry

Sorry for bumping in here, but I am totally agree with you here. A very great thread and really appreciate for your free coaching/advises here.

God bless you, Terry.

[dpdubai]

Yeah thanks Terry you the man!

I've read a few books now and they all contain the usual stuff about grip, stance, bridge, cue action but never seen as much detail.

Can I ask you one more thing about this?

In terms of practice is it best to take one of these elements, for example the grip and play for a whole session really concentrating on getting that grip to a level your happy with then moving on to say next week im going to concentrate on slowing my backswing and the pause or whatever?

I do solo practice 1-2 times and just want to make the best use of this time so the breaks come more consistently in match play.


Thanks again

[Terry Davidson]

dpdubai:

I normally advocate a player works on one thing at a time so he doesn't get overwhelmed trying to do too many things at once.

As the stance is rigid and not a dynamic thing, I combine the stance with grip as grip is sort of dynamic. Backswing is definitely a dynamic item, so don't work on more than one dynamic element at a time and try and get that one thing cemented into your technique.

Most players think the loose grip is an easy thing, but it's really difficult as I have proven that to myself. I found what I thought was a loose grip wasn't really loose enough and I was tightening my grip prematurely and that led to 'clutching' the cue too soon in the action, which results in the but coming up and to the left (in my case).

Even if you have to go overboard initially and leave an 'air gap' between the butt and the web between thumb and forefinger, do so in practice. This will help delay the tightening of the grip until later in the delivery.

Once you feel you have the grip down pat, then go to work on getting the slow backswing. Again, most players who do this think their backswing is slow enough, however again in my own case by making a video of myself I found it was still too quick for me to control it. The problem is, in matches or under pressure it will become even faster and lead to all kinds of upper-body movement.

Terry

[dpdubai]

dpdubai:

I normally advocate a player works on one thing at a time so he doesn't get overwhelmed trying to do too many things at once.

As the stance is rigid and not a dynamic thing, I combine the stance with grip as grip is sort of dynamic. Backswing is definitely a dynamic item, so don't work on more than one dynamic element at a time and try and get that one thing cemented into your technique.

Most players think the loose grip is an easy thing, but it's really difficult as I have proven that to myself. I found what I thought was a loose grip wasn't really loose enough and I was tightening my grip prematurely and that led to 'clutching' the cue too soon in the action, which results in the but coming up and to the left (in my case).

Even if you have to go overboard initially and leave an 'air gap' between the butt and the web between thumb and forefinger, do so in practice. This will help delay the tightening of the grip until later in the delivery.

Once you feel you have the grip down pat, then go to work on getting the slow backswing. Again, most players who do this think their backswing is slow enough, however again in my own case by making a video of myself I found it was still too quick for me to control it. The problem is, in matches or under pressure it will become even faster and lead to all kinds of upper-body movement.

Terry

Thanks Terry,


Can't tell you how much I appreciate your time, advice and patience.

I'll concentrate on my grip from now until I feel I have it then, if a century player like yourself still thinks his grip isnt up to scratch then this says alot to me about how much I need to concentrate on basic techniques before i can reach a consistent level.

I've got my "to do practice list" set up now in word,

starting at grip
then moving to the slow backswing and pause etc.

In fact your 7 point list will probably keep me going for months if not more during practice sessions and I just know its going to increase my break building.

Thanks again Terry