Cueing Accross - A Mental Fault

[brendan147]

Consider the three conditions apon contact with the object ball.
If the cueball is rolling forwards (accomplished by hitting the top of the white with the cue), then after impact it will momentarily stop, and then the friction of the cloth causes the white to continue rolling forwards. This is topspin.

If the cueball is spinning in the opposite direction (accomplished by hitting the bottom of the white with the cue), apon contact with the object ball, it will stop and then will begin to travel backwards once the (backspin) takes effect.

Now in the case of a stun,for the white to stop completely dead, the cueball must not be rolling in either direction, but simply skidding across the cloth. Set up a straight shot fairly close to the object ball and this is easy. You simply hit slightly below centre at a resonable pace, the cueball will simply skid across the cloth, without spinning at all, and stop once it reaches the object ball. Now extend this distance to a shot over say 9 foot. and play the same pace, the same height on the cueball. The cueball will initially skid across the cloth, but after a certain distance, friction of the cloth will cause it to start spinning forwards. This is effectively a stun run through, as the white will follow a short distance past the object ball and is a very advanced shot.
So in order for the cueball to have no rotational movement upon contact with the object ball, you must hit initially with some backspin, that is to say hitting the bottom of the ball. Friction with the cloth will cause the white to stop spinning backwards, and eventually begin rolling forwards again. The trick is for the white to contact the object ball at the point where the backspin has just worn off, but before the white begin rolling forwards. The height you hit on the white and the pace must be judged for each shot, and knowledge of this can only be attained through practice.

So long and the short of it... After what was probably a confusing and conveluted post... There is no difference between a stun shot and backspin

Sorry for the confusing post... It was less confusing in my head then it got longer and longer.... (Its a lot easier to demonstrate in person with a white ball)

And for future reference if you have a specific question about particular shots they can be posted here
http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...ad.php?t=16698

Thanks bro...

[Terry Davidson]

Well explained RG.

For any type of stun shots, whether stun-run-through (the most difficult to learn) to straight stun-stop shots the basic answer is a student has to practice them because the height you hit the cueball depends totally on the distance between the 2 balls. A long stun shot is hit exactly the same as a shorter screw shot.

Also, for Brendan...breaking the pack from a colour ball is also a shot that you have to practice since, especially from the black, it requires a good amount of power which then makes the pot more difficult. In your example with where the cueball is located (about 1/2-ball black) most people will use screw and side when in actual fact the correct method is to use stun and side. The reason is the screw (or top spin) will usually take the cueball over near the cushion and leave the next pot much more difficult.

The reason for the siding is to get the cueball to spin off the red it first contacts and get more action into breaking up the cluster of reds.

But, you must practice these shots (a lot) in order to master them

Terry

[Forman]

Well explained RG.

For any type of stun shots, whether stun-run-through (the most difficult to learn) to straight stun-stop shots the basic answer is a student has to practice them because the height you hit the cueball depends totally on the distance between the 2 balls. A long stun shot is hit exactly the same as a shorter screw shot.

Also, for Brendan...breaking the pack from a colour ball is also a shot that you have to practice since, especially from the black, it requires a good amount of power which then makes the pot more difficult. In your example with where the cueball is located (about 1/2-ball black) most people will use screw and side when in actual fact the correct method is to use stun and side. The reason is the screw (or top spin) will usually take the cueball over near the cushion and leave the next pot much more difficult.

The reason for the siding is to get the cueball to spin off the red it first contacts and get more action into breaking up the cluster of reds.

But, you must practice these shots (a lot) in order to master them

Terry

Can the side really have any kind of noticeable effect?
i would have thought that the friction between the balls is so little that side would have almost no effect.

[Terry Davidson]

forman:

I guess you must not watch any DVDs or web broadcasts of the professional tournaments. Whenever Ronnie (or any othr top pro) breaks the pack from the black ball he uses middle-ball stun with extreme siding.

Sometimes you can see the cueball spinning around inside the reds and throwing them in all directions. Dennis Taylor normally puts up a cueball to show where he hit it for the benefit of the fans.

The siding grips the CLOTH not the other balls. If you don't use the siding in this type of shot the danger will be the cueball will stick on one of the reds and you won't have a follow-up red shot

Terry

[Forman]

forman:

I guess you must not watch any DVDs or web broadcasts of the professional tournaments. Whenever Ronnie (or any othr top pro) breaks the pack from the black ball he uses middle-ball stun with extreme siding.

Sometimes you can see the cueball spinning around inside the reds and throwing them in all directions. Dennis Taylor normally puts up a cueball to show where he hit it for the benefit of the fans.

The siding grips the CLOTH not the other balls. If you don't use the siding in this type of shot the danger will be the cueball will stick on one of the reds and you won't have a follow-up red shot

Terry

I think i probably watch the most professional snooker out of anyone in New Zealand , i cant remember dennis putting up a cueball showing using side when going into the pack from black (i dont doubt he has but i would remember because i would have thought it was odd)

if you play the shot middle ball with extreme side the the ball will be spinning along the vertical axis and the point in contact with the cloth will be effectively stationary, i dont understand how this can stop you sticking on the reds?

i thought the way to ensure you dont stick on the pack was to screw into them so the screw takes effect after contact with the pack and the white moves away from it, ive seen ronnie and the top players play this shot all the time.

I'll defintely be watching closely when one of the pros goes into the pack from now on to see if i can see them using side as ive never noticed it before.

I dont want this to come off like im trying to argue as i generally agree with everything you post and find your input on the forum extremely helpful.

[RGCirencester]

I think it largely depends on the state of the pack. If for instance you are hitting a single red with reds either side, you might want to screw the white through the bunch, to split the reds nicely. However given a flat back pack, the danger is the white will just hit the reds and zip off to the side cusion.

But I await Terrys more knowlegeable response

[Forman]

I think it largely depends on the state of the pack. If for instance you are hitting a single red with reds either side, you might want to screw the white through the bunch, to split the reds nicely. However given a flat back pack, the danger is the white will just hit the reds and zip off to the side cusion.

But I await Terrys more knowlegeable response

but surely hitting the pack and zipping off to the side cushion is better than hitting a flat back pack and the ball stays spinning along a vertical axis but goes nowhere?
wouldn't you get the same result just stunning into the pack without complicating things with side?

[Terry Davidson]

When the pack is tight from the black they will use mostly stun with a touch of screw, about 3:30 on the clock face with a lot of power and the cueball with rotate within the pack and loosen up more balls than if they just used straight stun.

However, in a lot of cases there is an opportunity to hit the outside or second outside red on either end of the pack and in these cases they will use some form of straight stun, eithr top or bottom stun, to hit that particular red which frees up a couple of reds on one side of the pack plus one or two on the other side.

The circumstances vary so much in any given frame, however I was taling specifically about the pack brendan put up where the pack was pretty solid towards the black but looser up near the pink. In this specific case the player would want to get through that first tight line to hopefully free up some of the looser reds. A straight stun shot would likely have ended up sticking to the reds but a touch of screw and a lot of side would free up the cueball but not take it over to the side cushion.

Also, remember the pros are playing on pretty slick cloths which tend to give them better break-up shots when going into the pack from the black.

Dennis was very specific in his commentary about 'no screw' but I can't remember if he put up the cueball in that instance or not. If I come across another one I'll let you know which tournament and which match it was. Right now I'm watching the 2008 Worlds (Hendry/Day) so I'm a year behind in my watching (too busy coaching and practicing I guess).

Try setting up a pack of reds with a half-ball black and see if the side works for you. It helps on my table even though I have WOE 6811 and not the #10 match cloth

Terry

[brendan147]

forman:

I guess you must not watch any DVDs or web broadcasts of the professional tournaments. Whenever Ronnie (or any othr top pro) breaks the pack from the black ball he uses middle-ball stun with extreme siding.

Sometimes you can see the cueball spinning around inside the reds and throwing them in all directions. Dennis Taylor normally puts up a cueball to show where he hit it for the benefit of the fans.

The siding grips the CLOTH not the other balls. If you don't use the siding in this type of shot the danger will be the cueball will stick on one of the reds and you won't have a follow-up red shot

Terry

Ronnie is the master of breaking the reds pack off the black. But did he just use bottom right/left hand side most of the time to break the pack? I thought so...

In my case that I ask you earlier, how about using bottom right hand side screw to break the pack? In this case, extreme right hand siding is likely a miscue if not done properly.

Thanks Terry...

[Terry Davidson]

brendan:

I'd like to put this in perspective for you as you've been asking a lot of questions in the specialized area of breaking a tight pack off the black.

If you are at the CONSISTENT 75+ break class then it would pay you to practice this shot as most likely you are delivering the cue consistently straight and can accomplish it on a consistent basis.

If you are at the OCCASIONAL 35+ break in practice, which is where I think you said you were, you do not have a good enough cueing technique to accomplish this shot consistently and in fact shouldn't be trying a high power shot with side, screw or stun off the black to go into the pack until such time as you feel you can CONTROL it.

For the better players out there who have been following this string, I have tried breaking a solid pack from a 1/2-ball (approx-cueball level with the black) black with straight screw which of course ends up hitting more to the outside edge of the pack and going over to the cushion and perhaps off again (depending on power).

Then straight stun, and with a TON of power (too much really) I hit the centre of the pack and did move move of the balls but not very far and usually ended up with no shot at a red. I consider this shot very dangerous to anyone who is below the 75-break class.

This I tried screw with a ton of side and a lot of power (and therefore sometimes missed the black) and sometimes managed to just clip the outside red of the pack and the cueball usually ended up near the cushion with sometimes a very trick pot on a red on with iffy position as I was playing from on top of the cushion.

I found that in order to hit the centre of a tight pack and get some action on the cueball I used more stun than screw and extreme siding with a fair amount of power, and although I was more cosistent in potting the black, I also noticed I fared better with having a red to go at with the cueball out in the open and away from the cushion. A lot of times is was a shot to the middle rather than a shot to the top pocket for a black.

I was hitting the cueball with exteme right side and slightly below centre-ball on the height so I would call that a stun shot with siding and it was at around 3:30 or 4:00 on the clock face of the cueball.

Terry

[brendan147]

brendan:

I'd like to put this in perspective for you as you've been asking a lot of questions in the specialized area of breaking a tight pack off the black.

If you are at the CONSISTENT 75+ break class then it would pay you to practice this shot as most likely you are delivering the cue consistently straight and can accomplish it on a consistent basis.

If you are at the OCCASIONAL 35+ break in practice, which is where I think you said you were, you do not have a good enough cueing technique to accomplish this shot consistently and in fact shouldn't be trying a high power shot with side, screw or stun off the black to go into the pack until such time as you feel you can CONTROL it.

For the better players out there who have been following this string, I have tried breaking a solid pack from a 1/2-ball (approx-cueball level with the black) black with straight screw which of course ends up hitting more to the outside edge of the pack and going over to the cushion and perhaps off again (depending on power).

Then straight stun, and with a TON of power (too much really) I hit the centre of the pack and did move move of the balls but not very far and usually ended up with no shot at a red. I consider this shot very dangerous to anyone who is below the 75-break class.

This I tried screw with a ton of side and a lot of power (and therefore sometimes missed the black) and sometimes managed to just clip the outside red of the pack and the cueball usually ended up near the cushion with sometimes a very trick pot on a red on with iffy position as I was playing from on top of the cushion.

I found that in order to hit the centre of a tight pack and get some action on the cueball I used more stun than screw and extreme siding with a fair amount of power, and although I was more cosistent in potting the black, I also noticed I fared better with having a red to go at with the cueball out in the open and away from the cushion. A lot of times is was a shot to the middle rather than a shot to the top pocket for a black.

I was hitting the cueball with exteme right side and slightly below centre-ball on the height so I would call that a stun shot with siding and it was at around 3:30 or 4:00 on the clock face of the cueball.

Terry

Terry,

IMHO, a part of the different between 35+ and 75+ break player is that the break building is most likely begin the from the reds pack and scoring point around black/pink area, most of the time. To know what are you planning with such a situation I gave to you is priceless knowledge.

To be honest with you, I am not even thinking to stun - right hand siding the cue ball off black to break the reds pack as per your suggestion. I did break the reds pack off the black in my game if I have the chance, but most of the time it was a centre screw ball. That is the "different" that I need to know.

Afterall, this thread is all about cueing action right? I wish I can continue learning from you here, if you still allowing to me have your guide.

Best regards.

[Terry Davidson]

brendan:

I'm just cautioning you that in snooker, as in any other sport, a student has to learn to walk before they can run. In snooker that equates to getting the consistent technique down fairly well first to the point where you can deliver the cue straight.

In most frames of snooker the pack is normally only together at the start of the frame when there are maybe 5 loose reds and then 10 in a bunch behind the pink and this only happens if there's not a safety exchange at the start of the frame. If a player gets in early in a frame then he must know how to break the pack if he is capable of a 75+ break. After all, it's not much good to make 24 or 32 points and then break the pack and miss and leave it all for your opponent.

Also remember, the magic number in a frame is 73 which should be the first objective once you get in. 73 is 9 blacks and an extra red, leaving only a possible 67 for your opponent. If a couple of the loose reds are on the cushion or the black is safe or tied up it would be virtually impossible for your opponent to win the frame.

Two 30 breaks is usually good enough to put most frames away, even at the professional level sometimes but everyone seems to want to get to the point where they can win a frame in one shot. This only happens at the pro and very top amateur level and is a skill level that is very difficult to get to unless a player is totally dedicated to snooker.

Terry

[brendan147]

brendan:

I'm just cautioning you that in snooker, as in any other sport, a student has to learn to walk before they can run. In snooker that equates to getting the consistent technique down fairly well first to the point where you can deliver the cue straight.

In most frames of snooker the pack is normally only together at the start of the frame when there are maybe 5 loose reds and then 10 in a bunch behind the pink and this only happens if there's not a safety exchange at the start of the frame. If a player gets in early in a frame then he must know how to break the pack if he is capable of a 75+ break. After all, it's not much good to make 24 or 32 points and then break the pack and miss and leave it all for your opponent.

Also remember, the magic number in a frame is 73 which should be the first objective once you get in. 73 is 9 blacks and an extra red, leaving only a possible 67 for your opponent. If a couple of the loose reds are on the cushion or the black is safe or tied up it would be virtually impossible for your opponent to win the frame.

Two 30 breaks is usually good enough to put most frames away, even at the professional level sometimes but everyone seems to want to get to the point where they can win a frame in one shot. This only happens at the pro and very top amateur level and is a skill level that is very difficult to get to unless a player is totally dedicated to snooker.

Terry

Thanks Terry. Your advises and guides are priceless. But I still hope learning from you even from the very basic technique of this game.

What is the best practice routines for potiing into the middle pocket? I am always having a lot of dilema when it comes to go for the middle pot. The angle is so tight man....please help me here

Thanks.

[Terry Davidson]

If you are trying to pot a ball in the middle of a pocket from a tight angle then someone has given you totally the wrong information as you ALWAYS aim for the part of the pocket which will give you the highest margin of error.

To explain this...if you are potting the blue off its spot into a centre pocket then your point of aim is definitely middle pocket. HOWEVER, if you are trying to pot the blue into a corner pocket then you do NOT aim for the middle of the pocket as that will take you too near the side jaw of the pocket. With the corner shot your point of aim would be the edge of the leather, or in other words the inside of the top or bottom cushion jaw.

The most common shot where you do not aim for middle pocket is the black off its spot into a top pocket. If you aim middle pocket you will miss the pot as you will catch the top cushion jaw. Your point of aim would be the inside of the side cushion jaw, as it always is for the black off the spot.

As to practice to basically delivery the object ball to the point on the pocket you want to hit, that all comes down to learning to cue straight in the first place. There is only knowing the correct technique and then practicing it. For instance, if you cannot shoot the spots at high power and have the cueball come back across the brown spot then you are not cueing straight.

Using extremely high power I can't consistently deliver the cue straight and sometimes the cueball will return somewhere around the green or yellow spot. However if I use less power I can return the cueball over the brown spot every time. Try this for a few minutes at the start of each day, placing a piece of chalk on the rail right behind the black spot and cueball just ahead of the brown spot. Start out with just enough power to get the cueball back to your tip (at the end of the delivery stay down and leave your cue still and extended until the cueball comes back).

Now increase the power (but don't leave your cue there if the cueball is coming back at pace). Then after 4 or 5 shots get to the highest power you can muster and see where the cueball comes back to. If it comes back over the brown spot consistently then you should consider a professional career, given tons of determination and motivation.

Terry

[brendan147]

If you are trying to pot a ball in the middle of a pocket from a tight angle then someone has given you totally the wrong information as you ALWAYS aim for the part of the pocket which will give you the highest margin of error.

To explain this...if you are potting the blue off its spot into a centre pocket then your point of aim is definitely middle pocket. HOWEVER, if you are trying to pot the blue into a corner pocket then you do NOT aim for the middle of the pocket as that will take you too near the side jaw of the pocket. With the corner shot your point of aim would be the edge of the leather, or in other words the inside of the top or bottom cushion jaw.

The most common shot where you do not aim for middle pocket is the black off its spot into a top pocket. If you aim middle pocket you will miss the pot as you will catch the top cushion jaw. Your point of aim would be the inside of the side cushion jaw, as it always is for the black off the spot.

As to practice to basically delivery the object ball to the point on the pocket you want to hit, that all comes down to learning to cue straight in the first place. There is only knowing the correct technique and then practicing it. For instance, if you cannot shoot the spots at high power and have the cueball come back across the brown spot then you are not cueing straight.

Using extremely high power I can't consistently deliver the cue straight and sometimes the cueball will return somewhere around the green or yellow spot. However if I use less power I can return the cueball over the brown spot every time. Try this for a few minutes at the start of each day, placing a piece of chalk on the rail right behind the black spot and cueball just ahead of the brown spot. Start out with just enough power to get the cueball back to your tip (at the end of the delivery stay down and leave your cue still and extended until the cueball comes back).

Now increase the power (but don't leave your cue there if the cueball is coming back at pace). Then after 4 or 5 shots get to the highest power you can muster and see where the cueball comes back to. If it comes back over the brown spot consistently then you should consider a professional career, given tons of determination and motivation.

Terry

Thanks Terry. That's really helping.

The other problem I am always facing is losing confident (doubtful) of potting the object ball into the centre pocket. Again, the centre pocket angle is much tighter than the top/bottom pocket. What is the brest practice routine for this centre pocket potting?

By the way, I already improve drastically in my long pot success. You were right, it is all about nice and slow back swing cueing with straight thrust on the cue ball.

I am also happy to tell you that I have gain the control of my cue ball using stun and stun-run-thorugh shot. Again, it is the matter of cueing action and nice/steady backswing cueing arm.

Many thanks in advance.