Cueing Accross - A Mental Fault

[brendan147]

Where is all this attitude comming from?

I don't understand what part of krypton's posts inspired you to be so rude, this forum is a great place to learn and get advice from many different members but if you're going to dismiss and insult anyone other than terry that replies to your questions then just do us all a favour and send him a PM.

Also as terry said, everything krypton has told you is 100% correct and you really are embarrassing yourself acting in such a hostile manner.

100% correct? Not to me. Read back his replies. Otherwise, it is pointless to talk about this again and again.

[brendan147]

Mate your attitude here has started to grate on me. Terry doesn't have to answer anyones questions on this forum. He does so out of the kindness of his heart and wishes to help as many people as possible.
You cannot devalue other peoples opinions, as even "professional coaches" can disagree on some topics, and each will have different ways of teaching things.

If you want a personal coaching session I am sure Terry will oblige with his considerable experience for a fee, or send him a pm. If you want to hear many peoples opinions (including Terrys), and engage in debate therein, then post on a thread in a forum.

poolqjunkie gave some good asnwers, too. Even (if) I can argue with some of his statements, he just made his points.

So, what done is done. ONTO THE NEXT QUESTION....

[Looki]

Where is all this attitude comming from?

I don't understand what part of krypton's posts inspired you to be so rude, this forum is a great place to learn and get advice from many different members but if you're going to dismiss and insult anyone other than terry that replies to your questions then just do us all a favour and send him a PM.

Also as terry said, everything krypton has told you is 100% correct and you really are embarrassing yourself acting in such a hostile manner.

Mate your attitude here has started to grate on me. Terry doesn't have to answer anyones questions on this forum. He does so out of the kindness of his heart and wishes to help as many people as possible.
You cannot devalue other peoples opinions, as even "professional coaches" can disagree on some topics, and each will have different ways of teaching things.

If you want a personal coaching session I am sure Terry will oblige with his considerable experience for a fee, or send him a pm. If you want to hear many peoples opinions (including Terrys), and engage in debate therein, then post on a thread in a forum.

brendan:
I fast agree with the posts above. It doesn't hurt to be ambitious if you want to develope. But some of your comments are a bit arrogant and it definately doesn't help. Also as it has been mentioned this is a public discussion, so if don't like some opinions or comments leave it like that as long it's not personal. Other people (who want to learn too) might respect different opinions and get something out of them.

To me this thread has been very useful and helpful. You've had some very good posts and questions so let's keep it like that. Because it's frustrating to notice that there's new posts on this one and then you go see them and it's only some nonsense about who is right and who is wrong and from whom did somebody asked something about and stuff like that.

[brendan147]

brendan:
I fast agree with the posts above. It doesn't hurt to be ambitious if you want to develope. But some of your comments are a bit arrogant and it definately doesn't help. Also as it has been mentioned this is a public discussion, so if don't like some opinions or comments leave it like that as long it's not personal. Other people (who want to learn too) might respect different opinions and get something out of them.

To me this thread has been very useful and helpful. You've had some very good posts and questions so let's keep it like that. Because it's frustrating to notice that there's new posts on this one and then you go see them and it's only some nonsense about who is right and who is wrong and from whom did somebody asked something about and stuff like that.

Some of my anwers are here:- http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...&postcount=120

Yeah...that is my intention. Keeping up good and constructive questions, with the hope we can learn together. But it just rather frustrating when every now and then someone will say to you "do not compare yourself to Jimmy White" bla bla bla..............where is the POSITIVE attitude here in the first place then?

Are we just here and playing snooker for fun? If so, then it should be wasting my time to ask questions regarding techiques etc etc here.

What about now?

[Krypton]

((I won't compare anyone to Jimmy White. If you think it's my mental weakness saying I won't do that, that's not a problem for me. Others would say: setting realistic targets for the time given and work on them is a skill (ask Terry or Nic: Your target should be reachable, otherwise it's useless) And, my playing standard has absolutely nothing to do with that, the principle applies on any level.))

We've all gone through the same learning process (as long as you're one who get a 75 in matches):
we felt great when the first 30 went in in line up, and found out painfully that this has nothing to do with match play. scoring 20's regularly is much more demanding than the one 30 in line up was. back to hard work.

then we might have got to a standard where a regular 30 in a frame is realistic - and that means you're technique has reached a better standard. you can normally score bigger breaks in training. Looking at this normal player development, you should know and keep in mind what a huge amount of work and practice is needed to go from occasional 30s to regular 30s, and to regular 50s then - in training.

scoring 50 in matchplay, on a regular basis, is still very much better, and 75 - 'Well done at the practice table (or naturally gifted?), good player'.

It's nice to learn tricks, hints and special shots from the more experienced. And it's refreshing to put practice time in them, for a change. but then, you should not lose the focus, which is:
Solid, rock solid cueing, a top notch cue action, is the way to improve your game, and therefor most of the practice should be used to improve your cue action.

The less differences in striking you use, the more less variables you got to deal with, and the easier your game will become eventually. That is what I had in mind answering your question:

When you can play an easy/normal stroke, then use it, even if there is a more complicated shot that might get you to the same result. The pack splitting off the black doesn't call for a 'special shot'. It's outcome is uncertain anyway, all you can do is try to hit a specific red, with or without side, and make sure of the black pot. Don't fiddle with downward cueing unless you have to (hampered by another ball), but then you might decide to just roll the black in instead of hammering the pack and miss the black. It is literally impossible to judge (and execute) a downward cueing shot versus a 'normal' black pot, and the risk is enormous.

If a pro uses the difficult shot, there is always a reason behind it: the result - for him, at his current standard - is predictable, and he knows there is NO WAY that a standard shot will do it. But then, the situation is slightly alterable by using a very advanced shot, like the special cue ball escape you cited from Jimmy's book.
What I want to say here: If you know (perfectly!) where the cue ball can be moved to with the best cue action - and where it can't be moved to! - and if you can execute the shot perfectly, you might see that for one special given situation the positional result is just slightly not correct. THEN you might know a tricky shot that 'can possibly' bring you there, but you got to judge the risk very carefully. The shot might still turn out wrong, positional wise, or you might even miss because of being to ambitious with the cue ball position and tricking the shot.

In that example, Jimmy knew perfectly where the cue ball would go using a normal stroke. And decided: That won't do it here. Lucky him, he knows a 'trick' and trusts his technique well enough to risk it.
Not sure about he would use it in a friendly match, in practice only, or in the world's semis, just to make clear all that could affect his shot selection.


I hope you, brendan, can at least agree with a few point I tried to make clear above. I now Terry would, and many others. If you don't your learning curve will become steeper and steeper, and steeper than necessary anyway.

To close this excursus and come back to our all day practice:

I (and many, many, many in here and on the pro tour still) would give a lot to just simply be able to predict PERFECTLY where the white will end up, and execute that 'basic' shot correctly, for the very standard, basic cueing action.
If I could chose between:
- good enough cue action to miss one, but get precisely the same positional result in 50 half ball black screw shots, and
- score 49 of 50 with a trick shot, but having no clue where the white's going

I'd go for the first option. It can be used in other situation, where as the second one can't.

I hope you understand now why I replied the way I did. I never wanted to be offensive. I wanted to make the point:

In your practice, set up the back 5 reds of the pack and try to hit each of them on both sides, with various speeds, from the half ball black. If you can do this, try the same shot even harder, or with side on the cueball. Once you mastered this, you can use the same shot from half ball blues to gain position, and in many more occasions.
This is good practice work - but it's a difficult thing, hitting a specific red exactly quarter ball, half ball, three quarter ball and so on, with and without side, at literally every possible pace.
I don't believe anyone will ever be capable to predict all the above for different jumping cueballs on fancy downward strokes.

Analyzing the pack might show you which red is the correct one to hit, or the more promising one, and how you got to hit it - but still, the outcome can be lucky or unlucky. And only if this could be done perfectly, the shot range could be improved with jumpy contacts...

I consider it useless, pointless and wasted time to try to alter a split shot by making the cueball slightly jump with downward cueing. the white might, in some (Jimmy) situations be controlled within further limits than normally played, but the pack certainly can't.


no offense intended, again.

[brendan147]

((I won't compare anyone to Jimmy White. If you think it's my mental weakness saying I won't do that, that's not a problem for me. Others would say: setting realistic targets for the time given and work on them is a skill (ask Terry or Nic: Your target should be reachable, otherwise it's useless) And, my playing standard has absolutely nothing to do with that, the principle applies on any level.))

We've all gone through the same learning process (as long as you're one who get a 75 in matches):
we felt great when the first 30 went in in line up, and found out painfully that this has nothing to do with match play. scoring 20's regularly is much more demanding than the one 30 in line up was. back to hard work.

then we might have got to a standard where a regular 30 in a frame is realistic - and that means you're technique has reached a better standard. you can normally score bigger breaks in training. Looking at this normal player development, you should know and keep in mind what a huge amount of work and practice is needed to go from occasional 30s to regular 30s, and to regular 50s then - in training.

scoring 50 in matchplay, on a regular basis, is still very much better, and 75 - 'Well done at the practice table (or naturally gifted?), good player'.

It's nice to learn tricks, hints and special shots from the more experienced. And it's refreshing to put practice time in them, for a change. but then, you should not lose the focus, which is:
Solid, rock solid cueing, a top notch cue action, is the way to improve your game, and therefor most of the practice should be used to improve your cue action.

The less differences in striking you use, the more less variables you got to deal with, and the easier your game will become eventually. That is what I had in mind answering your question:

When you can play an easy/normal stroke, then use it, even if there is a more complicated shot that might get you to the same result. The pack splitting off the black doesn't call for a 'special shot'. It's outcome is uncertain anyway, all you can do is try to hit a specific red, with or without side, and make sure of the black pot. Don't fiddle with downward cueing unless you have to (hampered by another ball), but then you might decide to just roll the black in instead of hammering the pack and miss the black. It is literally impossible to judge (and execute) a downward cueing shot versus a 'normal' black pot, and the risk is enormous.

If a pro uses the difficult shot, there is always a reason behind it: the result - for him, at his current standard - is predictable, and he knows there is NO WAY that a standard shot will do it. But then, the situation is slightly alterable by using a very advanced shot, like the special cue ball escape you cited from Jimmy's book.
What I want to say here: If you know (perfectly!) where the cue ball can be moved to with the best cue action - and where it can't be moved to! - and if you can execute the shot perfectly, you might see that for one special given situation the positional result is just slightly not correct. THEN you might know a tricky shot that 'can possibly' bring you there, but you got to judge the risk very carefully. The shot might still turn out wrong, positional wise, or you might even miss because of being to ambitious with the cue ball position and tricking the shot.

In that example, Jimmy knew perfectly where the cue ball would go using a normal stroke. And decided: That won't do it here. Lucky him, he knows a 'trick' and trusts his technique well enough to risk it.
Not sure about he would use it in a friendly match, in practice only, or in the world's semis, just to make clear all that could affect his shot selection.


I hope you, brendan, can at least agree with a few point I tried to make clear above. I now Terry would, and many others. If you don't your learning curve will become steeper and steeper, and steeper than necessary anyway.

To close this excursus and come back to our all day practice:

I (and many, many, many in here and on the pro tour still) would give a lot to just simply be able to predict PERFECTLY where the white will end up, and execute that 'basic' shot correctly, for the very standard, basic cueing action.
If I could chose between:
- good enough cue action to miss one, but get precisely the same positional result in 50 half ball black screw shots, and
- score 49 of 50 with a trick shot, but having no clue where the white's going

I'd go for the first option. It can be used in other situation, where as the second one can't.

I hope you understand now why I replied the way I did. I never wanted to be offensive. I wanted to make the point:

In your practice, set up the back 5 reds of the pack and try to hit each of them on both sides, with various speeds, from the half ball black. If you can do this, try the same shot even harder, or with side on the cueball. Once you mastered this, you can use the same shot from half ball blues to gain position, and in many more occasions.
This is good practice work - but it's a difficult thing, hitting a specific red exactly quarter ball, half ball, three quarter ball and so on, with and without side, at literally every possible pace.
I don't believe anyone will ever be capable to predict all the above for different jumping cueballs on fancy downward strokes.

Analyzing the pack might show you which red is the correct one to hit, or the more promising one, and how you got to hit it - but still, the outcome can be lucky or unlucky. And only if this could be done perfectly, the shot range could be improved with jumpy contacts...

I consider it useless, pointless and wasted time to try to alter a split shot by making the cueball slightly jump with downward cueing. the white might, in some (Jimmy) situations be controlled within further limits than normally played, but the pack certainly can't.


no offense intended, again.

Well, I give Jimmy's example for this type of shot in some extremely rare cases. I asked you to split the pack off the black using this type of shot just to see what is the result you will get? That was all I asked.

Of course, I know there is no way any pro will do this shot off the black to split the pack like what Jimmy did with his cue ball in the example I gave you. What I mean was, the "less extreme degree" of downward stroke to the cue ball. That's it. How will be the result? Did you even try it? At least you try once and see the result yourself.

If you see in my previous diagram, the downward stroke I drew was just below the centre and the degree was less steeper compare to what Jimmy's suggesting, which is above the centre and in great degree. I would say the type of shot I meant is more like a push through ball, but with some little extra power, it should just eventually become a downward stroking pattern. That is why I said you didn't know what I was trying to discuss.

One thing you must know, me and other folks here were very lucky just to have very few snooker clubs (less than 10), and most of them (95%)are doing business just for granted. Worse come to worst, there is no way I can get a personal coach here in my place (unless I am super rich Donald Trump, Bill Gates, etc etc).

So, back to my original question to Terry was very simple (I wasn't even mentioning about Jimmy's thing at first). Since he is the coach, I am blessed to get advised/guides from him. Whatever my question to him is also perhaps what the other unlucky folks around the world (who never have a pro-coach) want to know. That is all my intention. To learn from those who are really "qualified". I am not saying that you are not "qualified" though. It just it is better if someone has reputation like Terry can give his explaination in first place.

You and the other European guys are so lucky since you can get involved with the PRO TOUR so close (maybe Ronnie's other house is next to yours? Who knows right?). This is what me and the other unlucky folks have to deal with. All we have here are just some youtube videos (some are true, but many are bull****s), pdf files or books (which you can say some are already OUTDATED), and with a little natural talent spare for us.

Practice routines and levels are different from one to another person. I am already aware of that long time ago. NO PROBLEM. Steve Davis, Jimmy's and other resources have plenty to choose and follow. And I know my playing level. And I know what to practice. I just trying to keep my target and standard as high as possible.

Thanks.

"A champion is not made overnight, but with the right attitude, and setting yourself in a high standard, is part of the process to become one"- Steve Davis

[Terry Davidson]

brendan:

I can see this has turned into a heated discussion, which is too bad as there shouldn't be any reason for anyone to get upset here.

The picture you attached with the 2 cues show one virtually level (impossible with the cushions anyway as the cue should be around 1 chalk cube height above the cushion ideally - for a centre-ball, top and bottom strike or in other words for all shots.

The second showed an elevated angle which looked like virtually a partial masse shot and you went on to say you are using this as you feel it gives you more control when applying screw. (I cannot agree, this might work for you and with a lesser angle for Mark Selby but it's not something I would recommend or teach).

Thirdly you sighted a masse shot from Jimmy White's Master Class used in a very specialized way and asked me and others to try and break the pack using it. I wouldn't do that as I can break the pack sufficiently well using my normal technique (maybe not as good as the top pros but at least as good as SOME of the pros).

Now, before you spot it on youtube.com, Ronnie also has a shot where he is close to the black and half ball and the black is off its spot and a little nearer to the pack, which is very solid at this point. Ronnie used a shot very similar to Jimmy's shot and JUMPED the cueball off the black and into the middle of the pack. It was the only way he could figure out to break the pack and in fact he did it well and ended up making a high break. He was too close to the black to try a normal shot and had to jack up the butt of the cue for the partial masse/jump shot.

HOWEVER, this again was a very specialized shot which I don't recommend any player (including myself on my own table) should practice since I've only ever seen it done once in all the snooker I've both watched and played, and believe me that's quite a lot of snooker.

If you believe you get much better screw and cueball control by jacking up the butt of your cue, then by all means use it if it gives you the confidence you need. HOWEVER, were you my student I would try and get you to keep your cuebutt down with the cue as level as possible, maybe take a longer backswing, probably take a slower backswing and hit the bottom of the cueball and you would find your control much, much better.

It has been my experience with students who are around the 30-break in practice class (like in the line-up) that when they apply screw (or what they think is screw) INVARIABLY they are hitting the cueball just below centre in an actual stun shot with a little screw on it. On many occasions during the first 2hr lesson once I get a student's technique near normal (or 'ideal' if you prefer) I end the lesson by showing them 'how to screw like a pro' (one of Nic Barrow's webinars although I do it with them at the table, not show them the webinar) and can easily have them place the green on spot with the cueball about 15in from the green and just off straight and be able to screw back to the top cushion or at least the area of the black spot. Obtaining 5-8ft of screw becomes a 'no-problem' shot with a student who before couldn't screw back 1ft using all his power.

Then I send them away and tell them to use that screw technique and learn how to control it and in the next lesson, usually a month later, I see a BIG improvement in both technique and cueball control. Some of them advance to the 50+ stage with the line-up and some of them advance to the 30+ stage in actual matches.

This is very satisfying to me as a coach although I wish I had some juniors to teach here in Canada, both male and female, as I think I really have something to impart to them.

Remember, you cannot go wrong by keeping to the basics and following my 7 basic steps to improvement on snooker which have been posted here a couple of times. Also, if you are reading extensively from the past masters then remember that your target for now is to improve your basic technique until you are to the 75+ stage in MATCHPLAY. Once you achieve that then, AND ONLY THEN, should you consider trying some of the more exotic Master Class shots as demonstrated by Jimmy White, or Steve, or Ronnie or Alex or any of the actual masters of snooker.

If you can place the green on spot with the cueball about 18in behind it but off-straight and with a normal cloth and cueball and you can screw back to the top cushion then you technique is approaching what you need. Oh, and by the way, using a power scale of P1 (for touch shot) to P10 (for maximum power), this green shot should be done with about P5 or medium power. If you have to use P10 then you still do not have the right technique

Terry

[Asi]

brendan:


If you can place the green on spot with the cueball about 18in behind it but off-straight and with a normal cloth and cueball and you can screw back to the top cushion then you technique is approaching what you need. Oh, and by the way, using a power scale of P1 (for touch shot) to P10 (for maximum power), this green shot should be done with about P5 or medium power. If you have to use P10 then you still do not have the right technique

Terry

Great post (as always).

"off-straight" - Do you mean almost dead straight with a small angle ?

Thanks

[brendan147]

brendan:

I can see this has turned into a heated discussion, which is too bad as there shouldn't be any reason for anyone to get upset here.

The picture you attached with the 2 cues show one virtually level (impossible with the cushions anyway as the cue should be around 1 chalk cube height above the cushion ideally - for a centre-ball, top and bottom strike or in other words for all shots.

The second showed an elevated angle which looked like virtually a partial masse shot and you went on to say you are using this as you feel it gives you more control when applying screw. (I cannot agree, this might work for you and with a lesser angle for Mark Selby but it's not something I would recommend or teach).

Thirdly you sighted a masse shot from Jimmy White's Master Class used in a very specialized way and asked me and others to try and break the pack using it. I wouldn't do that as I can break the pack sufficiently well using my normal technique (maybe not as good as the top pros but at least as good as SOME of the pros).

Now, before you spot it on youtube.com, Ronnie also has a shot where he is close to the black and half ball and the black is off its spot and a little nearer to the pack, which is very solid at this point. Ronnie used a shot very similar to Jimmy's shot and JUMPED the cueball off the black and into the middle of the pack. It was the only way he could figure out to break the pack and in fact he did it well and ended up making a high break. He was too close to the black to try a normal shot and had to jack up the butt of the cue for the partial masse/jump shot.

HOWEVER, this again was a very specialized shot which I don't recommend any player (including myself on my own table) should practice since I've only ever seen it done once in all the snooker I've both watched and played, and believe me that's quite a lot of snooker.

If you believe you get much better screw and cueball control by jacking up the butt of your cue, then by all means use it if it gives you the confidence you need. HOWEVER, were you my student I would try and get you to keep your cuebutt down with the cue as level as possible, maybe take a longer backswing, probably take a slower backswing and hit the bottom of the cueball and you would find your control much, much better.

It has been my experience with students who are around the 30-break in practice class (like in the line-up) that when they apply screw (or what they think is screw) INVARIABLY they are hitting the cueball just below centre in an actual stun shot with a little screw on it. On many occasions during the first 2hr lesson once I get a student's technique near normal (or 'ideal' if you prefer) I end the lesson by showing them 'how to screw like a pro' (one of Nic Barrow's webinars although I do it with them at the table, not show them the webinar) and can easily have them place the green on spot with the cueball about 15in from the green and just off straight and be able to screw back to the top cushion or at least the area of the black spot. Obtaining 5-8ft of screw becomes a 'no-problem' shot with a student who before couldn't screw back 1ft using all his power.

Then I send them away and tell them to use that screw technique and learn how to control it and in the next lesson, usually a month later, I see a BIG improvement in both technique and cueball control. Some of them advance to the 50+ stage with the line-up and some of them advance to the 30+ stage in actual matches.

This is very satisfying to me as a coach although I wish I had some juniors to teach here in Canada, both male and female, as I think I really have something to impart to them.

Remember, you cannot go wrong by keeping to the basics and following my 7 basic steps to improvement on snooker which have been posted here a couple of times. Also, if you are reading extensively from the past masters then remember that your target for now is to improve your basic technique until you are to the 75+ stage in MATCHPLAY. Once you achieve that then, AND ONLY THEN, should you consider trying some of the more exotic Master Class shots as demonstrated by Jimmy White, or Steve, or Ronnie or Alex or any of the actual masters of snooker.

If you can place the green on spot with the cueball about 18in behind it but off-straight and with a normal cloth and cueball and you can screw back to the top cushion then you technique is approaching what you need. Oh, and by the way, using a power scale of P1 (for touch shot) to P10 (for maximum power), this green shot should be done with about P5 or medium power. If you have to use P10 then you still do not have the right technique

Terry

Thanks Terry for the little training tips. I do not have any problem using basic screw ball by the way. This is something I don't get from both books I read, the scale of P1 and P10 shots. How to vary from P1 to P5 is something I must work it on myself, right? Got that in my note now, coach.

If you are not recommending this downward stroke, that is fine for me . Your answers/guides/advises here are always helpful for other snooker fancy like me and the others who are very unlucky not to have a proper coaching academy in our regions.

Many thanks and I will back with some more issues.

[Krypton]

slllllllllllllllllurpppp

[Terry Davidson]

Asi:

Yes, slightly off-straight means with the green on spot the cueball would be on a line where a straight screw shot would take the cueball to somewhere around the middle of the side cushion between black and blue.

This is so the shot is NOT dead-in and the cueball will not come back and hit the cue so the student can STAY DOWN at the end of the shot (as he should do for every shot he can)

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

Brendan:

I missed a question in one of your previous posts where you said you are 5ft3in and should you use a shorter cue.

In answer I would say you should try a 56in cue, maybe a 55.5in cue and maybe even a 55in cue and see if you feel any more comfortable with them.

The problem is finding the shorter cues as you can't chop down your own until you confirm it. The other option is to go to a very cheap cuemaker and ask him to make you up some short but cheap cues to try out. Not sure what it will cost, but probably too much.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

brandan:

The way to practice different power from P1 to P10 is simple. Take your cueball and place in either on the brown spot or just a fraction ahead.

Now, with the maximum power you can muster shoot the spots about 5 times and see how many table lengths you get. That number of table lengths is a P10 for you, however ensure your cueball remains near the centre of the table for all of the trips up and down.

Then take that number of lengths and divide it by 10. As an example, I get somewhere around 5.5 lengths of my match table at my P10. Therefore, for each increment in power I use about a half-length of the table, so P1 it half a length, P2 would be a full length, P3 length-and-a-half, etc.

The only problem with this method is you would almost never use P1 or P2 unless they are pocket-weight putt shots around the black or something like that. But this is just a way to inform a student what I'm looking for in a specific shot. I can describe the shot as P5/H5/centre or P5/H5/L5 which is centre-ball in height but with extreme left siding.

So the deep screw off the green I described would be something like P5/H1/centre. Get it?

Terry

[Looki]

Terry.

Can you describe verbally how loose the "loose grip" should be? (One of) My problem(s) is that I've used a grip which is too tight and I'm trying to get rid of it. I've noticed that if I don't think about it I normally at some point find my self squeezing the cue. So it's hard. My wrist also tends to bend forward which might cause some problems too and is probably because the grip is still too tight or my cueing arm might being too far behind..

[Terry Davidson]

Grips come in all types, however the pros all have one thing in common, which is a good and LOOSE grip. Now I know this is of no help to most students so I have to somehow describe HOW LOOSE???????

So here is my answer...the grip should be loose enough so that the butt of the cue will slide EASILY back and forth in it without moving the grip forearm.

In other words, have a friend help you a bit. Get down into your normal address position and have your friend grab the butt (of the cue, not yours!) with just 2 fingers and see if he (or hopefully she) can EASILY pull the cue out of your grip without your forearm coming back.

My own grip is with the first 2 fingers, very loose and with the back 2 fingers just touching the cue. In the address prosition the back of my palm is also just touching the butt and as I backswing the back of the palm comes off the butt and the grip moves into the front part of the hand, how far depends on the length of backswing.

Hope that helps everyone

Terry