Cueing Accross - A Mental Fault

[Terry Davidson]

Brendan

When you said 'off-centre stricking' I took that to mean applying side, which is what it normally means.

With pure top or bottom you are still striking the centre-line of the cueball (vertical centre line) and the line of aim still applies. When you strike purely centre-ball in the vertical it's the same line of aim as when you apply top or bottom on the vertical centre line.

This will, however, change the angle the cueball takes off at when it strikes the object ball but it won't change the direction the object ball takes on contact with the cueball.

Terry

[brendan147]

Brendan

When you said 'off-centre stricking' I took that to mean applying side, which is what it normally means.

With pure top or bottom you are still striking the centre-line of the cueball (vertical centre line) and the line of aim still applies. When you strike purely centre-ball in the vertical it's the same line of aim as when you apply top or bottom on the vertical centre line.

This will, however, change the angle the cueball takes off at when it strikes the object ball but it won't change the direction the object ball takes on contact with the cueball.

Terry

Yeah Terry, sorry...I shouldnt said side off centre striking earlier.

That's what I want to know...if I purposely using top/bottom spin for the long pot, the cueball angle change when it takes off. Sometime they work by just guessing, sometime they don't.

I know the only way to get better in whatever we want to do with the cue ball is practice like mad. But, what is the proper practice for this type of shot to make a long pot then? You are the coach, and I hope you have the answer...

[Terry Davidson]

The only exercise I can think of would be something like this:

Place the blue on spot with cueball at a half-ball pot (approx) towards baulk. Now attempt to stun down for black position on either side of the black, so top stun and bottom stun. Mark where you had the cueball so you can replace it on the same spot each shot.

Once you have that mastered, put an object ball midway between pink and black spots about 1ft from the side cushion. Cueball in baulk anywhere and try and stun around behind the black for black position and then try for blue position (like potting the first red after a break shot.

Always put the cueball and object ball in the same spot but don't repeat too often so you don't wear a line in the cloth and pee off the club owner.

You're right, the only method to learn cueball reactions with different amounts of stun is to practice the shots and observe where the cueball goes by staying down at the end of the delivery and following the cueball with your eyes only, no head movement. This is so you get the feedback.

Also observe the object ball to see if it went into the centre of the pocket or you over-cut or under-cut it slightly so it went in off the side or top jaw. Only centre-pocket pots should be counted as a success.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

And one other point...you said you hoped I had the answer since I'm the coach. Remember, there are NO silver bullets in learning snooker and I can't turn you into a cue-ball control wizard by giving you some drills to try.

It's all up to you to figure out and that can only be done by practice and OBSERVATION of the results of each shot.

The other thing in stunning in a long pot is cueball control is a little iffy because you won't pot the ball centre-pocket all the time which will give you a different cueball track. Even the pros on a long red where they stun around the black are only trying to get EITHER blue ball position OR a baulk colour, so it's still a guessing game at the pro level. Usually they play to land just short of the baulk line for a baulk colour for safety reasons and are playing the pot as a 'shot to nothing'.

Much better to attempt to perfect close cueball control by trying my exercise of potting the blue off the spot and trying to get the cueball to land on the brown or pink spots. You can change this up by trying for the yellow or green spots. This exercise will lead to better close cueball control and give you a much better return in higher breaks when you're around the black.

Terry

[brendan147]

The only exercise I can think of would be something like this:

Place the blue on spot with cueball at a half-ball pot (approx) towards baulk. Now attempt to stun down for black position on either side of the black, so top stun and bottom stun. Mark where you had the cueball so you can replace it on the same spot each shot.

Once you have that mastered, put an object ball midway between pink and black spots about 1ft from the side cushion. Cueball in baulk anywhere and try and stun around behind the black for black position and then try for blue position (like potting the first red after a break shot.

Always put the cueball and object ball in the same spot but don't repeat too often so you don't wear a line in the cloth and pee off the club owner.

You're right, the only method to learn cueball reactions with different amounts of stun is to practice the shots and observe where the cueball goes by staying down at the end of the delivery and following the cueball with your eyes only, no head movement. This is so you get the feedback.

Also observe the object ball to see if it went into the centre of the pocket or you over-cut or under-cut it slightly so it went in off the side or top jaw. Only centre-pocket pots should be counted as a success.

Terry

Thanks Terry.

Yes, there is no short cut to be a good player. Jimmy White said in his book: "being good at something is never been easy". Thanks for the tips of long pot exercise.

However, technically, how to do top/bottom stun? I mean how is the cueing action? The cue action still a follow through the cue ball? Or just half way push through the cue ball?

[brendan147]

Breaking the pack and retain the cue ball position

Hello Terry,

Here are situations to break the reds pack and to retain the cue ball position just around the black/pink area for high point scoring.

What is the type of shot(s) would you recommend for situation:-
1)White Position;
2)X Position; &
3)Y Position

Just note there is a loose red locked at the cushion neraby the middle pocket as well.

Please also tell if there is any other option to keep the break on going.

Thanks in advance.

[Terry Davidson]

Brendan:

Where you have the white is the best position for breaking the pack off the BLACK ball.

However, note that the back of the pack towards the black is almost a solid line and in order to break it up AND get a red you would have to hit the cueball with stun and right-hand siding VERY hard.

If it was possible in this particular situation I would have played to break this pack using the BLUE ball, trying to hit the pink square or just off square as there quite a margin for error there and for certain you would end up with a shot at a red.

The danger with breaking this pack from the blue would be you might cover up the black however you should free the pink and might be able to free the black by potting the red that is in the way

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

brendan:

I forgot to answer your other question on stun shots, i.e. - what is the cue action, do you follow through?'

There is a common misperception with a lot of players, and I don't know where it came from, that there is less follow-through on a stun shot. Soem pros don't follow-through all the way on top-stun shots only and those are called 'stun-run-through' shots, but again this can be easily mis-interpreted.

You should think of all STUN shots as SCREW shots and play them the same way. Ask yourself this question - your cueball is on the baulkline and there's a dead-in red 1ft from the top pocket (so a 9ft shot) and that red is in perfect postioin to get on the black perfectly for the next red. How would you hit that cueball to stop it on contact with the red? The answer is you would use deep screw with medium-to-high power depending on your ability to deep screw over distance. It would be the same cue action as a screw shot, but the screw shot would have more power.

You can only learn how to adjust the screw power required for stun shots through experience and it differs with conditions (slow cloth, light cueball). Even a pro may not be able to stop that cueball precisely where that red was as that's actually a stun-run-through shot but the run-through is only one inch. Getting that accuracy over 9ft is a real skill.

There is no difference in technique between stun, screw, top or stun-run-through except for the height you hit the cueball and the power you use and these are dependent on the distance between cueball and object ball

Terry

[brendan147]

Brendan:

Where you have the white is the best position for breaking the pack off the BLACK ball.

However, note that the back of the pack towards the black is almost a solid line and in order to break it up AND get a red you would have to hit the cueball with stun and right-hand siding VERY hard.

If it was possible in this particular situation I would have played to break this pack using the BLUE ball, trying to hit the pink square or just off square as there quite a margin for error there and for certain you would end up with a shot at a red.

The danger with breaking this pack from the blue would be you might cover up the black however you should free the pink and might be able to free the black by potting the red that is in the way

Terry

Hi Terry.

Thanks for your explainaton. How about if the case where the cue ball @ X or Y position? What are your options here?

And when you said stun the cueball with right-hand siding to break the back off the black, what is the potting angle? About a quarter ball cut? From my logic thinking, it won't be the same angle if I use plain striking to cue ball.

Thanks.

[brendan147]

brendan:

I forgot to answer your other question on stun shots, i.e. - what is the cue action, do you follow through?'

There is a common misperception with a lot of players, and I don't know where it came from, that there is less follow-through on a stun shot. Soem pros don't follow-through all the way on top-stun shots only and those are called 'stun-run-through' shots, but again this can be easily mis-interpreted.

You should think of all STUN shots as SCREW shots and play them the same way. Ask yourself this question - your cueball is on the baulkline and there's a dead-in red 1ft from the top pocket (so a 9ft shot) and that red is in perfect postioin to get on the black perfectly for the next red. How would you hit that cueball to stop it on contact with the red? The answer is you would use deep screw with medium-to-high power depending on your ability to deep screw over distance. It would be the same cue action as a screw shot, but the screw shot would have more power.

You can only learn how to adjust the screw power required for stun shots through experience and it differs with conditions (slow cloth, light cueball). Even a pro may not be able to stop that cueball precisely where that red was as that's actually a stun-run-through shot but the run-through is only one inch. Getting that accuracy over 9ft is a real skill.

There is no difference in technique between stun, screw, top or stun-run-through except for the height you hit the cueball and the power you use and these are dependent on the distance between cueball and object ball

Terry

Depending on how much the power in my shot....so....basically you are telling me that a stun shot still a follow through cue action without pointing the tip too low (which can cause the cueball screwing back after the impact) or too high (which can cause the cueball run-through after the impact) during the shot.

Is this right?

[brendan147]

Cue specs

Terry...

Some snooker "secret" tips that I read tell that our ideal cue length is determine by our height? How much the truth of this statement?

If you are agree with the statement, what is the deal length for my cue then? I am only 5'3" height.

Another thing, say if I have two cues with same specs and woods/shaft. The only different is the first cue is a 3/4 jointed cue and the other cue is 1 piece cue. In your opinion, which cue will give a better result in terms of control and balance of the cue during cueing acton?

Steve Davis use 1 piece cue as he said in his book though.

Thanks in advance.

[Terry Davidson]

Brendan:

On your first question, you are basically pooched with the cueball in the 'X' position, which looks to be dead-in on the black. Pot the black and play safe.

From position 'Y' you use extreme top (run-through) and hit the ball VERY hard and the cueball will 'loop' into the pack, however looking at this pack I doubt if you would end up on a red. However, a pro would try it and then play safe if no red was available. With this shot the danger is missing the black since you are shooting so hard with so much power and leaving the table to your opponent.

Cue length is determined by the length of the ARMS and not specifically height, although height is a good guide. Cue should be around 1-2in below the level of the shoulder, which is the generally accepted length. For most people 57in is fine but for people over 6ft with long arms then a 58in would be good (Ronnie uses 58in and I think he is just over 6ft).

A one-piece cue is generally regarded as having the best 'feel' for control, however I've found it's too tough to tell as you could never get a one-pice and a 3/4-butt with EXACTLY the same specs as the shafts are a natural product and will differ from cue to cue. 3/4-butts were developed for a compromise between convenience in carrying and to have the 'feel' of a one-piece. I do not recommend the middle-jointed 2-piece cue for snooker although it's used exclusively for American pool.

Let's see if I can make this any clearer for you...A STUN SHOT AND A SCREW SHOT ARE EXACTLY THE SAME THING (unless it's top-stun) and the height you hit the cueball at is totally dependent on the distance between the cueball and object ball. If you have a height range from 1 to 10, if the balls are a foot apart you would hit slightly below 5, if the balls are 3ft apart your would hit around 2 at medium pace, if the balls are 10ft apart you would likely hit at height 1 (deep screw) with a lot of power to stun the cueball. YOU CAN ONLY LEARN THIS THROUGH EXPERIENCE AND WITH THE SAME CUE. Each cue will be different, and that's also your answer for breaking the pack using extreme right stun in the previous example. It depends on you, your cue and the amount of power you use. And the aiming line of your cue would be to the RIGHT of normal centre-ball striking as you will be pushing the cueball to the LEFT on striking it, so you are correct in assuming it would be more to 1/4-ball rather than the 1/2-ball for centre-ball striking.

Remember, there is also a shot called a stun-run-through where you want the cueball to travel forward after striking. It's a method used by good players so they don't have to slowly 'roll' a shot dead weight to a pocket, which is never a great idea unless you absolutely have to do it.

I hope that's answered all your questions but please consider trying to practice some of these shots to see and LEARN the results for yourself. I can only tell you so much via this method and I also can't see you in action so it's very hard sometimes to answer questions specifically.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

brendan:

I forgot to mention, from position 'Y' DO NOT USE ANY SIDING and rely on the top spin to loop the cueball into the pack. Siding with so much power will make the black a very difficult pot.

Set up the balls as in your diagram and see if you can pot the black from both where you have the cueball in the diagram and also 'Y' and see if you first of all pot the black and secondly if you end up with a red to play on the next shot.

Then set up a half-ball blue and try and stun directly into the pink ball and see what the results are. I think they will be better than off the black.

Terry

[RGCirencester]

Depending on how much the power in my shot....so....basically you are telling me that a stun shot still a follow through cue action without pointing the tip too low (which can cause the cueball screwing back after the impact) or too high (which can cause the cueball run-through after the impact) during the shot.

Is this right?

Consider the three conditions apon contact with the object ball.
If the cueball is rolling forwards (accomplished by hitting the top of the white with the cue), then after impact it will momentarily stop, and then the friction of the cloth causes the white to continue rolling forwards. This is topspin.

If the cueball is spinning in the opposite direction (accomplished by hitting the bottom of the white with the cue), apon contact with the object ball, it will stop and then will begin to travel backwards once the (backspin) takes effect.

Now in the case of a stun,for the white to stop completely dead, the cueball must not be rolling in either direction, but simply skidding across the cloth. Set up a straight shot fairly close to the object ball and this is easy. You simply hit slightly below centre at a resonable pace, the cueball will simply skid across the cloth, without spinning at all, and stop once it reaches the object ball. Now extend this distance to a shot over say 9 foot. and play the same pace, the same height on the cueball. The cueball will initially skid across the cloth, but after a certain distance, friction of the cloth will cause it to start spinning forwards. This is effectively a stun run through, as the white will follow a short distance past the object ball and is a very advanced shot.
So in order for the cueball to have no rotational movement upon contact with the object ball, you must hit initially with some backspin, that is to say hitting the bottom of the ball. Friction with the cloth will cause the white to stop spinning backwards, and eventually begin rolling forwards again. The trick is for the white to contact the object ball at the point where the backspin has just worn off, but before the white begin rolling forwards. The height you hit on the white and the pace must be judged for each shot, and knowledge of this can only be attained through practice.

So long and the short of it... After what was probably a confusing and conveluted post... There is no difference between a stun shot and backspin

Sorry for the confusing post... It was less confusing in my head then it got longer and longer.... (Its a lot easier to demonstrate in person with a white ball)

And for future reference if you have a specific question about particular shots they can be posted here
http://www.thesnookerforum.com/board...ad.php?t=16698

[brendan147]

brendan:

I forgot to mention, from position 'Y' DO NOT USE ANY SIDING and rely on the top spin to loop the cueball into the pack. Siding with so much power will make the black a very difficult pot.

Set up the balls as in your diagram and see if you can pot the black from both where you have the cueball in the diagram and also 'Y' and see if you first of all pot the black and secondly if you end up with a red to play on the next shot.

Then set up a half-ball blue and try and stun directly into the pink ball and see what the results are. I think they will be better than off the black.

Terry

Thanks a lot Terry. Your answers are very helpfull. I will give you some more situations later on. God bless you.