Cueing Accross - A Mental Fault

[kjozsa]

what helped me most with faster straight cue action is having not only a slower but significantly longer backswing (I felt it gets an other ~10cm at least). it plain allowed to have a much slower term of acceleration with more room available for the same action, resulting in more precise forward movement..

[Krypton]

but then, if you can make your back swing longer by as much as 10cm without feeling uncomfortable or awkward, it certainly was way too short before...

[brendan147]

what helped me most with faster straight cue action is having not only a slower but significantly longer backswing (I felt it gets an other ~10cm at least). it plain allowed to have a much slower term of acceleration with more room available for the same action, resulting in more precise forward movement..

For the medium pace shot, my cueing arm angle is just swinging back and forth somewhere around 45degree (I guess) with the elbow slightly dropped lower during the final thrust. This shot is easy to control since the elbow is not moving during the final back swing.

For the powerful shot, I guess that my cueing arm angling not more than 60degree with the elbow rising a little bit (but not beyond my comfort level) during the final back swing and I will drop my elbow lower during the final thrust on the cue ball. This type of shot is much harder and need a very good/solid stance, straight/firm bridge arm and of course, straight cueing action.

I never know the exact length/degree of my back swing cueing arm...but as long as I am comfortable and confident that my shot will be a straight cueing action, my eyes then already on the object ball for the final thrust.

Comment guys?

[Terry Davidson]

brendan:

Sorry, i mis-read your first post and thought you were trying to pot everything into the middle of the pocket.

For those tight angle shots to the middle pockets you basically have to aim for the fall of the pocket or as far in on the far jaw that you can as long as you have the edge of the object ball at least 1/8in inside the near jaw since if you hit the near jaw at all you will miss the pot.

There is no drill or routine I can give you which will help you pot these shots consistently. You need a straight cue delivery and you have to practice them plus of course they must be played at very slow pace, usually just above pocket weight.

The other thing I noticed you mentioned in your last post is you said your elbow RISES in your backswing and I don't think this can be true. For a longer backswing the elbow must DROP in order to keep the cue as level as possible.

The secret of the backswing for EVERYONE is this...it must be both slow enough that it can be positively controlled and also only as long as you can positively control it. Some people draw the cue back to their 'V' and some people only draw the cue back 4 or 5 inches.

The problem with the people who have the shorter backswing is they will not have as much a choice when it comes to power shots when compared to those people who have a 8-10in backswing.

Terry

[brendan147]

brendan:

Sorry, i mis-read your first post and thought you were trying to pot everything into the middle of the pocket.

For those tight angle shots to the middle pockets you basically have to aim for the fall of the pocket or as far in on the far jaw that you can as long as you have the edge of the object ball at least 1/8in inside the near jaw since if you hit the near jaw at all you will miss the pot.

There is no drill or routine I can give you which will help you pot these shots consistently. You need a straight cue delivery and you have to practice them plus of course they must be played at very slow pace, usually just above pocket weight.

The other thing I noticed you mentioned in your last post is you said your elbow RISES in your backswing and I don't think this can be true. For a longer backswing the elbow must DROP in order to keep the cue as level as possible.

The secret of the backswing for EVERYONE is this...it must be both slow enough that it can be positively controlled and also only as long as you can positively control it. Some people draw the cue back to their 'V' and some people only draw the cue back 4 or 5 inches.

The problem with the people who have the shorter backswing is they will not have as much a choice when it comes to power shots when compared to those people who have a 8-10in backswing.

Terry

Elbow must drop for longer backswing? I must be misjudge about it then. Well, I never look at my elbow when I am cueing. I just "felt" it is rising. Maybe I didn't notice that my elbow just actually "locked" during my final backswing.

Thanks for the correction.

[brendan147]

Terry,

Please look at the diagram attached herewith.

The first cueing action is the basic screw shot. The second cueing action is another type of screw shot which I call it the "down stroke" shot.

I found out in my game that this "down stroke" shot give me more power and control of cueing, and also ball cue ball positioning, if this shot handled properly.

Can you tell me some example in what situation we can necessarily use this type of shot in our game? Do you recommend this type of shot for a powerful long pot shot?

Thanks in advance.

p/s-my long pot (straight/angled) at the moment is 7/10 (it was only 4/10 before I meet you here). Just need to make a few adjustment for the cue ball control. Thanks for your advises/guides previously.

[poolqjunkie]

Terry,

Please look at the diagram attached herewith.

The first cueing action is the basic screw shot. The second cueing action is another type of screw shot which I call it the "down stroke" shot.

I found out in my game that this "down stroke" shot give me more power and control of cueing, and also ball cue ball positioning, if this shot handled properly.

Can you tell me some example in what situation we can necessarily use this type of shot in our game? Do you recommend this type of shot for a powerful long pot shot?

Thanks in advance.

p/s-my long pot (straight/angled) at the moment is 7/10 (it was only 4/10 before I meet you here). Just need to make a few adjustment for the cue ball control. Thanks for your advises/guides previously.

I dont believe that it is possible to do (1) with a screw shot, because you will always hit down on the ball due to the height of the cushion, and the height of your bridge, isn't it?

[brendan147]

I dont believe that it is possible to do (1) with a screw shot, because you will always hit down on the ball due to the height of the cushion, and the height of your bridge, isn't it?

Shot (1) is the basic screw shot. You should know this. Your bridge has to be lowered from your normal bridge.

Shot (2) is another way (a more advance way) of screw shot and your strike must be straight and downward just a little below the cue ball's centre. However, overdoing it will cause the cue ball jump, or too less power will cause the cue ball stunning instead of screwing.

Anyway, let's wait how coach Terry giving his comment about shot (2).

[Krypton]

Shot 2 is extremely damageable by only the slightest trace of unwanted side spin. Keep your cue as level as possible unless you really cannot play like shot 1.

I'd only use 2 as seldom as possible, let's say when screwing back for a tricky shot with the object ball very close to the cue ball.

[brendan147]

Shot 2: Try this

Shot 2 is extremely damageable by only the slightest trace of unwanted side spin. Keep your cue as level as possible unless you really cannot play like shot 1.

I'd only use 2 as seldom as possible, let's say when screwing back for a tricky shot with the object ball very close to the cue ball.

Split the reds pack off the black using this down stroke shot using:

a) Half ball angle and centre cue ball shot (no side); &
b) The black, of course, must go into the top pocket.

Tell me different later on mate. Sometime I also use this type of shot when the object ball is around 1 to 3ft range from both cue ball and the pocket. Different distances of course required different level of power and stroking angle in your shot.

Again, let us wait how coach Terry giving his opinion about this type of shot.

[Krypton]

Split the reds pack off the black using this down stroke shot using:

a) Half ball angle and centre cue ball shot (no side); &
b) The black, of course, must go into the top pocket.
...

Again, let us wait how coach Terry giving his opinion about this type of shot.

The same result could be achieved by using a shot 1. the 'US pool style striking' when standing more erect is not needed. why would someone decide to take the risk of curving the ball when applying unintentional side, or make it jump slightly, IF he can pot the black and go into the pack with a normal shot?

I'm pretty sure of 2 things:

- never seen a pro play shot 2 from next to the black, as they can master screw and stun with normal cueing

- Terry will be of the same opinion: keep the cue as level as possible. If you cannot get enough screw on the ball with a level cue, don't raise the butt - better train your cue-action, as that's where the lack of power comes from.

[brendan147]

The same result could be achieved by using a shot 1. the 'US pool style striking' when standing more erect is not needed. why would someone decide to take the risk of curving the ball when applying unintentional side, or make it jump slightly, IF he can pot the black and go into the pack with a normal shot?

I'm pretty sure of 2 things:

- never seen a pro play shot 2 from next to the black, as they can master screw and stun with normal cueing

- Terry will be of the same opinion: keep the cue as level as possible. If you cannot get enough screw on the ball with a level cue, don't raise the butt - better train your cue-action, as that's where the lack of power comes from.

First of all, I never said rising the butt for this type of shot. Secondly, Jimmy White using this type of shot for certain situation (read his book titled Jimmy White's Snooker Masterclass). The reason I ask Terry for this type of shot because I need more examples/advises from him since in Jimmy's book there are only few examples.

Lastly, I never said my basic screw shot is not powerful. I am just saying that the down stroke shot make me "feel" more control and powerfull in screw shot.

So, you might wanna re-think whatever you want to comment here mate. It seems you don't know what I am trying to discuss regarding this type of shot. The pro snooker player does use down stroke shot. Jimmy White is one of them. Go find and read his book.

Peace.

[brendan147]

See what's Jimmy said

The same result could be achieved by using a shot 1. the 'US pool style striking' when standing more erect is not needed. why would someone decide to take the risk of curving the ball when applying unintentional side, or make it jump slightly, IF he can pot the black and go into the pack with a normal shot?

I'm pretty sure of 2 things:

- never seen a pro play shot 2 from next to the black, as they can master screw and stun with normal cueing

- Terry will be of the same opinion: keep the cue as level as possible. If you cannot get enough screw on the ball with a level cue, don't raise the butt - better train your cue-action, as that's where the lack of power comes from.

Attached herewith is what Jimmy said regarding this downward stroke. PM me if you want his full version of pdf. Bt I don't simply give it to you. You need to pay me...

[Krypton]

Pleas don't over-react on every single post that says something against your theory - otherwise, asking is not necessary anyway.


I said:
IF (yeah, if. in case) somebody has too little cue power for a shot, he'd better go and try to develop a better technique, than starting to experiment with a trick-shot-style cue action.
in the long term, that will help more.

I never pretended your basic screw shot wasn't powerful enough - I only covered the case ANYbody might think this was the case (in a given situation)

you just don't read carefully!!!


you were talking about "splitting the pack off the black". no way jimmy would use the shot you mention and cite off his book, because it's not necessary when splitting.

what he actually describes there is a bouncing cue ball to make it bunny hop forwards AFTER contact and massé (almost ) back afterwards. that is an extremely difficult shot, with a very big risk of going wrong, that we more mortals should not use anyway.


the last thing you forget: you cannot compare jimmy's cue action and shot range with yourself, with me, with terry even. 95% of the pros don't come close to jimmy's power.
what you say is a little bit like: "but I have seen alex higgins pot balls when almost jumping during delivery, so it MUST work". yeah, it does work. but not for you.


again, for you: I think in general you don't read posts carefully enough and over-react quite often.

[Terry Davidson]

brendan:

Now, now...here you are grabbing a short story by Jimmy White and basing your entire screw shot technique on what he obviously uses in very specific and special situations where he needs to intense screw (and some bounce) on the cueball to steer it around another ball which with normal screw the cueball would cannon into. THIS APPLICATION BY JIMMY IS ONLY MEANT FOR VERY RARE AND SPECIFIC POSITIONAL SHOTS AND NOT MEANT TO BE WHAT A PLAYER SHOULD USE FOR NORMAL SCREW TECHNIQUE.

This is why he called it 'Master Class' and believe me at your skill level you should not consider yourself in the Master category.

By the way, krypton has it EXACTLY correct. I would only use Jimmy's example in 2 situations, number one would be when the 2 balls are close together and a normal level cue would result in a push or double-hit foul shot. The second case would be if I really needed to masse the cueball to get the 'curve' effect that is shown in Jimmy's diagram. All he is doing is sort of a 'half-masse' shot where the balls are fairly close together, the object ball is going into an open pocket so there's more room for error on the pot.

This is a very dangerous way to use screw (or more correctly masse effects) because the opportunity to apply unwanted side is greatly increased.

However, in saying that I must add the following little exception. In general most coaches will teach that a player should get the cue as level as possible, in fact around one chalk height above the cushion is considered ideal.

BUT...I notice Mark Selby (and he's the only one I've noticed so is therefore an EXCEPTION) does cue down on a slightly steeper angle than other pros when applying screw. I don't recommend his approach at all.

The other point is, Jimmy White obviously has a lot of knowledge but it's based on his top-level experience from 20 years ago. Anything Jimmy can do with this masse-effect shot today's top pros can do with their longer backswings and more powerful technique. Ronnie doesn't need to jack the butt of his cue up to get the same amount of effect Jimmy gets in his demo.

Terry