Correct Strength of Grip

[throtts]

You can hold it like a budgie an egg or even a turd but fact remains if you miss pots you can be simply hitting the wrong part of the object ball..

[Terry Davidson]

Blame another coach for the bird thing.

Terry

[throtts]

@ Terry,

I totally agree with you. Yoo may remember me stating to you the very loose grip changed my game and due to having my own table the improvement was huge..

Also, Terry you are one the users I search and again search when I have a sticking point in my game and 10 times out of 10 it really helps me to sort it out. Your wisdom of the game is huge to the forum, so many good players refuse to share the tricks of the trade because they do not come easy and also certainly not for nothing..

Thanks for your tips, Terry. I sure hope you stick around with whatever input you have.

[Terry Davidson]

throtts:

Thanks for your support.

I edited my posts to take it easier on Sidd, who I think is worrying too much about points which are much too fine. Although if Sidd wants to become a pro then perhaps those fine points are worth worrying about, but I suspect being a pro is not in his dreams.

As for the other sarcastic comments - 'sarcasm is the refuge of fools' (or at least those who cannot contribute anything positive to the discussion).

But I think I'm probably done giving coaching advice for free on here since I am a certified professional Master Coach and wouldn't mind being paid once in awhile for what I believe is sound technique advice and which has helped a lot of members.

Terry

[nrage]

But I think I'm probably done giving coaching advice for free on here since I am a certified professional Master Coach and wouldn't mind being paid once in awhile for what I believe is sound technique advice and which has helped a lot of members.

That's unfortunate for the rest of us, but understandable nonetheless. You do put an awful lot of your own time into this forum, for little immediate gain, though it was one major reason why I came to see you for coaching when you came over to the UK last time. Perhaps you just need a bit of a break? Maybe it's becoming too much of a "job" instead of just being a fun diversion?

[Terry Davidson]

nrage:

I'm going to limit my answers to SENSIBLE questions where the player has put a bit of research and thought into his own problem and has been unable to come up with an answer that suits him.

I get very tired of saying the same things over and over again. For instance, I was sent a video via PM to analyse and I noticed some upper body and hip movement during the backswing and delivery and the person came back and said 'it's just a bit of movement, does that matter'? How many times have I said on here stay absolutely still on the shot, don't even breathe.

Or another player who says he can't hold his breath long enough and has to breathe while on the shot. Since it only takes somewhere between 5-10 seconds to play a shot from bridge on the table to end of delivery I have to wonder how much he even read any coaching posts.

Answering the same questions over and over again does get to me as I would rather that person do a little research on their own. There are something like 55 different strings in the Coaching Questions section along with over 1,300 postings and I figure most technique questions have been asked and answered by one of us on here, but people seem to be too lazy to do some research for themselves and would rather ask the question again so the answer is right there for them.

Another recent 'for instance' - I was asked yet again when to tighten the grip during the delivery. I figure I said 'after the cueball has been struck' about 50 times (at least) on here and yet people are still asking the same question.

It does get a little off-putting and especially when other people try and take the mickey out of what I'm writing and make lame jokes about it.

Terry

[nrage]

Makes sense to me. I can recall thinking to myself several times reading your posts "how does he manage to write the same thing again and again without getting fed up with it".. I guess I now know the answer to that one, and fair enough too.

I just had a thought, I reckon it would be fairly easy to provide a bunch of pre-saved searches for various things.. I might mention it to Ferret and see what he thinks.

[Sidd]

I would also agree with Nrage and state that Terry has been coaching many of us for free of charge and hence sometimes some people might take that for granted. However, this should not mean that anything could be joked around with. For those who have given such comments- if they want to improve- rather than thinking about grip tightness and other things they can try my advice this time i.e. try to be only half serious with your game and you will see the improvement yourself. It is the patience and discipline that counts.

Terry I know I sometimes bother you to a massive extent, for which I do hereby regret, but its just that I used to think that there has to be something wrong with my technique and hence I tend to improve on that. Since you are the one who knows this game and all its aspects to such minute detailing level that it absolutely inspiring and hence I sometimes get too confused and argue about hose finer points... You are right trying to be a pro is not in my league given that I live in Pakistan and not the UK and also I am not rich enough to afford that. If you ask me the situation here is that once a very nice pro player of Pakistan (Shehram Changezi) went to UK for compete in a tournament. His tour was for about PKR 800,000 including all costs. The Pakistan Snooker Association could only pay him 150,000 and he chipped in his own 300,000 and then took additional loans in order to go and compete. In this kind of situation, I am the only bread earner for my family, even though being a snooker pro would be all I want, yet I cant go for it! Anyway... Please never be offended by someone who questions with the intention of learning and improving so its the intent that counts; even though sometimes bothering. Its just like a PhD Scholor trying to teach Kindergarden... But then yes what I have learnt from this thread it that:

As Damienlch puts it for me, I will try to play more like an artist rather than a technician this is also what Dell Hill preaches. And yes, Terry you are my coach and you are not going anywhere I will continue to bother you, but this time with much more decency and at an advanced level after doing my own little research; as you ask for!!!

FINALLY: As for the topic of this thread 'correct strength of grip' What I can say finally is that it has to be LOOSE and the looseness cannot be emphasized enough in order to make us understand that it has to be completely loose without any pressure of any sort at least until the cue ball has been struck and that helps to drive the grip hand to the chest thereby completing the shot with a nice follow through. Hence it has to be nice and easy and yes if one is holding an egg or a bird, it must not break/stay alive now I was in search of the correct strength of the grip and I stumbled upon a comment in another thread, which made me learn the following two lessons:

1. While coming back from the final backswing to the delivery what is happening is that the fingers are closing from te open position. Hence no matter how careful one is there is a tendency that whilst closing the fingers one twists the grip a little (clock-wise for righties and anti-clockwise for lefties) and hence a trace of unwanted side is applied like I normally would apply some left hand side. So this twist in the wrist is what causes it due to the closing of fingers so it has to be GENTLE if one is to avoid that side and therefore one must not clinch the butt hence the grip has to be LOOSE enough for this to be achieved.

2. I will have to work on the wrist cock becasue in order to avoid this I believe two things are necessary i.e. a- nice loose grip and fingers coming back nice and easy and not hard and b- nice firm wrist cock. Any advice on developing the wrist cock other than the method used normally (thumb faces down) is welcome.

I will hence improve on these points in order to improve my game overall..... hahaha and there goes me; saying I wont go in to details of technique and be an artist but then again hahaha Cant help it guys; this is the only way to play snooker perfectly right? ANd why to worry if I am enjoying the process???

[vmax4steve]

nrage:

I'm going to limit my answers to SENSIBLE questions where the player has put a bit of research and thought into his own problem and has been unable to come up with an answer that suits him.

I get very tired of saying the same things over and over again. For instance, I was sent a video via PM to analyse and I noticed some upper body and hip movement during the backswing and delivery and the person came back and said 'it's just a bit of movement, does that matter'? How many times have I said on here stay absolutely still on the shot, don't even breathe.

Or another player who says he can't hold his breath long enough and has to breathe while on the shot. Since it only takes somewhere between 5-10 seconds to play a shot from bridge on the table to end of delivery I have to wonder how much he even read any coaching posts.

Answering the same questions over and over again does get to me as I would rather that person do a little research on their own. There are something like 55 different strings in the Coaching Questions section along with over 1,300 postings and I figure most technique questions have been asked and answered by one of us on here, but people seem to be too lazy to do some research for themselves and would rather ask the question again so the answer is right there for them.

Another recent 'for instance' - I was asked yet again when to tighten the grip during the delivery. I figure I said 'after the cueball has been struck' about 50 times (at least) on here and yet people are still asking the same question.

It does get a little off-putting and especially when other people try and take the mickey out of what I'm writing and make lame jokes about it.

Terry

Why don't you answer coaching questions only through pm's after recieving a payment through paypal and ignore everything else. Don't tell the taxman though.

You're right, there are a lot of lazy people who don't bother to put in the hard graft first and just want quick fixes for free. Combine that with the dumbing down of western society and the rise of the internet and you have a generation who feel that they have no need to learn as the information they require is only a click of a mouse away.

[Terry Davidson]

vmax:

What pees me off a lot is when someone asks a very silly question which I've probably answered a dozen times or more in different coaching question strings or else with a little though and effort they could easily figure out the answer themselves.

No one will learn anything if I keep spoon-feeding them the answers to all their questions. It is a proven fact if someone comes up with their own answers they will remember them much better than if they just ask and get spoon-fed an answer.

The one other thing I get a little upset about is I spent a lot of money and an AWFUL LOT of my own time working on my own technique and discovering quite a few things about technique which aren't really covered in any of the books or coaching videos (as for instance the closing of the grip and turning the wrist slightly) and I would like to see a few more of these players who want to improve to work on their own problems for a while and THEN if they can't arrive at a solution they can ask me to see if I have figured anything out.

Terry

[Terry Davidson]

Sidd:

The important thing to remember regarding the grip is this...having a loose grip is not the most important thing! (I know this goes against all I've said but bear with me).

The most important thing regarding the grip is the play MUST NOT increase the pressure of the grip before he strikes the cueball. The other important thing is the grip should not be tight as this introduces tension in the upper arm where the two muscles which drive the cue back and forth are located.

The reason most books and videos (and myself) advocate starting with a loose grip is to help the player to delay the tightening of the grip pressure until after the cueball has been struck. If you watch some vintage Hendy video on youtube you will see he used to take his back 3 fingers right off the butt of the cue and pointing away from his body. I believe this was so it would take longer to get those fingers back onto the butt and then they wouldn't exert any pressure until after the strike.

Now here's the real problem...whenever 99% of players try to re-grip the cue during the delivery their unconcious mind will control the back 2 fingers of the grip and in order for that baby finger espescially to get a grip on the butt of the cue they will unconciously turn the wrist joint into their body a bid to allow that damned baby finger more purchase on the butt. Then the problem is this not only takes the butt off-line but it also creeps up earlier and earlier in the delivery and then they start to decelerate the cue before the cueball has actually been struck.

It takes a player who has absolutely massive iron will to start with a firm (but not tight) grip and TO KEEP THAT SAME PRESSURE THROUGH TO AFTER THE STRIKE. However, this is the ideal and correct way a player should proceed and also this is what is happening with most of the really good pros is their grip is firm enough to have very positive control of the cue and it doesn't increase in pressure AT ALL through the strike of the cueball and in fact doesn't tighten on the cue until the back of their thumb strikes the chest and squeezes the thumb into the forefinger along with the back 2 fingers tightening on the butt as the butt slams into the back of their palm.

This firm but not tight pressure maintenance is a VERY difficult thing to teach a student who is not going to become a pro and it's much more simple to teach keeping a loose grip and then not tightening it until after the strike.

If you really want to achieve what the pros are doing try this...get some duct tape and tape up your back 2 fingers so they are able to be curved around the butt of the cue but are not able to tighten on the butt when the cue is delivered. Try it for awhile and then remove the tape and see if you have the iron will to keep the pressure of those two fingers the same through the strike. Chances are you will find it VERY DIFFICULT

Terry

[Sidd]

Thanks for your reply Coach. You really are leading me intheh right direction. You are right, if you would state about the pressure rather than saying about the loose grip, one would not understand. Now that you have made my mind stick to the loose loose grip, I can very well understand the fact that its the same pressure (unchanged) till the strick that does the trick so one can have a grip of one's liking for as long as the pressure is kept the same. Yes stoping the last two fingers is not an easy thing to achieve. I might never turn pro Terry but my love for the game makes me try hard and try and try again till I can play like a pro my approach is simple in this regard, as under:

I SHALL LEARN AND BE ABLE TO PLAY CONSISTENTLY LIKE A PRO or else I WOULD HAPPILY DIE TRYING

I will try the duct tape method and see what happens and also yes now that I can have a comfortable grip and have been working on that nice wrist cock (thanks to you I will tend to have the wrist cocked a little AWAY from the body) I shall try to maintain the pressure till the end and see how that goes.

Now first things first... let me change my signature line

CHEERS!

[LittleMissAlexa]

Right, I have a question for any decent players or coaches out there. I agree the grip should be loose, but my question is 'How loose'?

This is particularly in relation to Terry's Posts on the forum, while I agree with his other 6 points on a perfect cue action, I would just like to see what other people think about the grip.

Here is a post taken from another thread from Terry



Although yes the grip should be loose I am somewhat skeptical on the "loose enough for somebody to pull the butt out of your hand with 2 fingers" part.

So I'd just like anyone elses opinion on how loose they think the grip should be.

the tighter you hold something the slower it moves that i believe is the science of friction its like a fast bowler in cricket they have the loosest possible grip without dropping the ball it gives them an extra 5 to 10mph

i only grip the cue tight when im rolling up behind a ball

[throtts]

Try banging a nail in with a tight grip on a hammer, then loosen the grip and do it again. On the looser grip the nail, "goes in better".

End of story.