Twisting the wrist

[nrage]

Terry, Mark Allen has a short backswing, but can generate quite a bit of power!

It's not that it's impossible, it that's it harder to do accurately. Not everyone can do it as well as Mark Allen, and ultimately if it's easier to get the power another way, why not do that instead?

[Giggity1984]

It's not that it's impossible, it that's it harder to do accurately. Not everyone can do it as well as Mark Allen, and ultimately if it's easier to get the power another way, why not do that instead?

Fair point, but in general, a shorter backswing improves accuracy?!

[Terry Davidson]

Giggity:

Your original comment regarding Mark Allen's shorter backswing is not really a fair comment. I give advice on here which is targeted at the GENERAL POPULATION of snooker players, but you can take any comment regarding technique that I say here and name a pro who is an exception to the rule.

As an example, I say you shouldn't move the upper body when down on the shot, but Selby does this and still plays well. I say the elbow should be over the cue, or nearly so, but Mark Williams' elbow is way outside the cue while Higgins is a bit inside the cue. I say the back leg should be straight but Peter Ebdon and a couple of other pros (Mark King?) play with both legs bent. I say a wrist cock will stabilize the cue in the horizontal plane and help keep it from moving sideways but Hendry only had a very slight wrist cock whereas Davis has a severe one.

All the top pros you see today started playing around 10yrs old and in general learned their technique and developed it when they were very young and these differences in technique have become natural to them. Remember, most of the present pros were running centuries by the time they were 14yrs old, but my advice is meant for the more average player who didn't play 8hrs a day from the time they were 10 years old.

Yes, I agree a shorter backswing usually means more accuracy but at the expense of less power available in the stroke while still keeping STILL & SMOOTH. Mark Allen is an exception and I believe he learned to stay still and smooth with a shorter backswing when he was quite young and he has also learned to develop more power but still keeping the upper body still on the delivery where on a power shot he accelerates quite abruptly.

A really good example of this is Ronnie. He drops his elbow prematurely in the delivery and uses his more powerful shoulder muscle to accelerate the cue. He most likely started doing this when he was very young (and shorter) and learned how to drop the elbow and use the shoulder muscle while still keeping the cue delivery absolutely straight. However, for the average player to try this would mean some sideways movement in the butt of the cue and would lead to a loss of accuracy, especially on longer pots since the butt may only move a couple of millimeters or so.

To get back to your original Mark Allen short backswing comment, I use a backswing which is too short because I have a tendency to lift my upper body on a longer backswing and can't control the cue and it becomes worse on longer pots unless I really try and control body movement on BOTH the backswing and delivery. One of my solutions is a shorter backswing however I've found, when I compare myself to other players, that I have limited power and accuracy on longer power shots.

My recommendation for both myself and the average players out there is to try and lengthen the backswing by keeping still and smooth and slowing the backswing down so they can keep it straight and this will give them the accuracy and power required for those long and high power pots which most of us have trouble with (but which Mark Allen doesn't seem to have any problems with).

Every pro has something unorthodox in their techniques (except maybe Davis) but they have learned to control it and have become natural at it. However as they age that bit of unorthodox technique becomes harder and harder to coordinate. So for the average player the question becomes 'why copy that and then have to learn to control it'?

Terry

[ace man]

Ensure you have the wrist cocked with the thumb pointed straight down to the floor and some angle in the wrist joint. Probably the best example of this is Steve Davis although Ronnie does a good job of it too. For a less severe wrist cock check Hendry.

What would be advantage with such severe wrist cock? I tried it myself some time ago, but found that I would need to fully lock the wrist and I couldn't play like that...just too much tension for me personally. Not sure how Davis and others can be so smooth with it. Hendry's grip looks much simpler to form...nowadays my grip looks close to that of Hendry, but not nearly consistent of course. Most pros have grips with more severe cocked wrist than Hendry. What is their theoretical advantage over Hendry's grip, if any?

[nrage]

What would be advantage with such severe wrist cock? I tried it myself some time ago, but found that I would need to fully lock the wrist and I couldn't play like that...just too much tension for me personally. Not sure how Davis and others can be so smooth with it. Hendry's grip looks much simpler to form...nowadays my grip looks close to that of Hendry, but not nearly consistent of course. Most pros have grips with more severe cocked wrist than Hendry. What is their theoretical advantage over Hendry's grip, if any?

Warning, this is all my own (crazy) theory

The grip and wrist cock I have tried to adopt/train into myself is the amount of wrist cock required to place the cue directly below my grip forearm as it hangs vertically down at address position.

Why? Well...

If you hold your hand up in front of you, form a grip circle and orient it so you can look directly through the circle, then you cock the wrist left/right you should see the circle of the grip moves left/right of the bone in the arm.

So, with your grip circle on the line of the forearm now bend the wrist in the other direction front/back (to/away) you should see the grip circle remains on the forearm line the whole time. Now, cock your wrist to either side of center and do the same front/back movement.. the grip circle now arcs from outside the line of the forearm, toward the line of the forearm and back.

So.. if you imagine you're playing a shot, with a severe wrist cock /and/ you have that front/back wrist movement in your cue action then you'll also be introducing that arc and therefore some sideways movement in the action, and you don't want that.

So, having the grip on the line of the forearm allows you to have front/back wrist movement without side/side movement, it protects you from unintentional front/back wrist movement introducing side/side movement.

Also, we have something called "Proprioception" which is basically a sense of the relative positions of our own body parts. And, I think we have a better idea where the bigger parts are (I reckon I can tell more accurately where my forearm is vs how cocked my wrist is). So, if you can train yourself to put the cue and grip circle on the line of the forearm, and you have an acurate idea where that forearm is, you will have an accurate idea where the cue is, and that will give you a more accurate picture of whether you've got it where you want it.

Here ends my crazy theory.

[ace man]

Ok, grips are individual thing, but if somebody is forcing us to have a sort of role model for it, which of these three would you choose?

Stephen Hendry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...6SnP7A8#t=448s

Steve Davis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKtSM7aISc0


Ronnie O'Sullivan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...XRHxj18A#t=61s

[Terry Davidson]

I would recommend Ronnie or Steve Davis. However, that said, the grip should be a personal thing and a player should experiment during solo practice and try and find the best one for his physique and technique and then stick with it.

For me I've found the Joe Davis 'cue laying in the bed of the 4 fingers' with a wrist cock and thumb pointed straight down to be the best for me.

Terry

[Giggity1984]

Giggity:

Your original comment regarding Mark Allen's shorter backswing is not really a fair comment. I give advice on here which is targeted at the GENERAL POPULATION of snooker players, but you can take any comment regarding technique that I say here and name a pro who is an exception to the rule.

As an example, I say you shouldn't move the upper body when down on the shot, but Selby does this and still plays well. I say the elbow should be over the cue, or nearly so, but Mark Williams' elbow is way outside the cue while Higgins is a bit inside the cue. I say the back leg should be straight but Peter Ebdon and a couple of other pros (Mark King?) play with both legs bent. I say a wrist cock will stabilize the cue in the horizontal plane and help keep it from moving sideways but Hendry only had a very slight wrist cock whereas Davis has a severe one.

All the top pros you see today started playing around 10yrs old and in general learned their technique and developed it when they were very young and these differences in technique have become natural to them. Remember, most of the present pros were running centuries by the time they were 14yrs old, but my advice is meant for the more average player who didn't play 8hrs a day from the time they were 10 years old.

Yes, I agree a shorter backswing usually means more accuracy but at the expense of less power available in the stroke while still keeping STILL & SMOOTH. Mark Allen is an exception and I believe he learned to stay still and smooth with a shorter backswing when he was quite young and he has also learned to develop more power but still keeping the upper body still on the delivery where on a power shot he accelerates quite abruptly.

A really good example of this is Ronnie. He drops his elbow prematurely in the delivery and uses his more powerful shoulder muscle to accelerate the cue. He most likely started doing this when he was very young (and shorter) and learned how to drop the elbow and use the shoulder muscle while still keeping the cue delivery absolutely straight. However, for the average player to try this would mean some sideways movement in the butt of the cue and would lead to a loss of accuracy, especially on longer pots since the butt may only move a couple of millimeters or so.

To get back to your original Mark Allen short backswing comment, I use a backswing which is too short because I have a tendency to lift my upper body on a longer backswing and can't control the cue and it becomes worse on longer pots unless I really try and control body movement on BOTH the backswing and delivery. One of my solutions is a shorter backswing however I've found, when I compare myself to other players, that I have limited power and accuracy on longer power shots.

My recommendation for both myself and the average players out there is to try and lengthen the backswing by keeping still and smooth and slowing the backswing down so they can keep it straight and this will give them the accuracy and power required for those long and high power pots which most of us have trouble with (but which Mark Allen doesn't seem to have any problems with).

Every pro has something unorthodox in their techniques (except maybe Davis) but they have learned to control it and have become natural at it. However as they age that bit of unorthodox technique becomes harder and harder to coordinate. So for the average player the question becomes 'why copy that and then have to learn to control it'?

Terry

I do apologise if I caused you any offense Terry. Thank you for the in depth response and analysis though. :-)

[Jake O'Sullivan]

This is interesting because there's a player in the league I play in that twists his wrist but is also a great player and knocks them in for fun. I'm not sure whether he does this just when he's using spin but I've noticed it when he's playing with power. I've personally tried it just to see what it's like and you can see when cueing the ball that your cue's not straight. Very strange.

[alabadi]

Maybe watching too much Jamie Cope.

Which way is it twisting though?

what happened to Jamie haven't seen him for some time now has he quit?

[rimmer10]

very interresting nrage. tried it and you are absolutely right!

[Giggity1984]

what happened to Jamie haven't seen him for some time now has he quit?

I keep up with his scores. He's not winning many matches at the moment. He was at the shootout. He qualified for the haiku open.

[hotpot]

I think this problem is quite common even with good players one example being Maguire who turns his wrist quite a bit on power shots .
I use to do it terrible but have nearly e,iminated it now and one thing i find really helps is driving the cue through the fingers until your arm hits the chest .

Should have said i use badge down and find the flat part a useful aid when driving the cue through , i have tried it badge up but find it much harder to keep straight .