On the verge of quitting

[Terry Davidson]

Some comments and experiences from a coach regarding cue length and the grip.

I recently received a 58-1/4" cue from Aurora, having used a 57" exclusively before. I decided to give is a good try for the past 3 weeks and found I couldn't get on with it at all. I'm not certain if it's me or the length but I switched back to an H&O 57" in the past 3 days and have made a couple of tons in practice whereas I only had one in the 3 weeks I tested the Aurora.

Perhaps the cue just doesn't suit me or perhaps it's the length, I'm not really certain but I am sticking with a 57" from now on (I am just a bit under 6ft and I grip the cue at the end of the butt with a fairly straight bridge arm, which seems to help by the way).

On the grip...the comments here are absolutely correct. In the address position the cue should be gripped with the forefinger only with the thumb just holding the cue in the curl of the forefinger. The other three fingers should be wrapped around the butt but NOT GRIPPING THE CUE (unless you want to try the new Steve Davis grip like Alex Higgins had with the back 3 fingers).

However, no matter how you grip the cue (Ronnie uses primarily the middle 2 fingers) it is absolutely VITAL in the address position the wrist is cocked out from your body and you have 2-3 wrinkles in the wrist joint skin and also in the address position THE BACK OF THE PALM IS TOUCHING THE BUTT OF THE CUE. This forces a wrist cock and you WILL deliver the cue straighter.

Also, the grip should be at or very near the back of the butt and the bridge forearm should be ALMOST STRAIGHT. This assists with keeping your head still and also getting the right shoulder socket up behind the head so it's hidden on a straight-on look.

I believe you will find some coaches who disagree with this principle but I've found these little adjustments have made an immense difference in my own technique and also I believe Del Hill advocates a grip near the end of the butt or even at the end of the butt with the baby finger curled behind the butt (see Matthew Stevens for an example and also the Steve Davis coaching video from the 80's where he says this is a 'very comfortable grip').

Any questions?

Terry

[The Doctor]

I would have to disagree with that.
First of all there can be no one grip fits all.
The reason i say this is because, when you look at a whole host of players, a lot of them have different grip styles and all have had successful careers.
The cocked wrist example was one used by Steve Davis. Ray Reardon had the opposite grip, where by his wrist was actually turned under very slightly(having the cue sitting in the palm of the hand).
Stephen Hendry had no cocked wrist and his arm and back of hand are in a straight line as is Stephen McGuire's.
Ronnie O'Sullivan has a cocked wrist but uses the second finger more as his trigger finger than his first.
So as the evidence suggests, there is no right or wrong only what is right for the individual.
The grip must allow the individual the ability to be able to play the full range of shots required to be able to play at whatever level he/she is hoping to achieve.

[Terry Davidson]

Doc:

Some thoughts for you.

Ray Reardon is a bad example for technique due to his broken collar bone which was never set correctly and he had to develop that style. But let's see how Jamie Cope makes out with that identical style.

Maguire is another bad example as he turns his wrist when he re-grips the cue with the back 3 fingers. Hendry also did the same but lately I notice he does have a little wrist cock to stop that lateral butt movement when re-gripping the cue.

My thoughts on this are...when players are young and their rhythm and timing are perfect (that's what natural ability is after all) then they are able to play snooker at the top level.

However, as they age and their hand-eye coordination deteriorates a bit they need to remove all the bad extra moving parts in their techniques and get it down to the very basics, i.e. - elbow dropping straight down with cue butt remaining under the long bone in the forearm. This cue action ensures a straight delivery.

Watch Maguire and look for the turning of the wrist. Watch Hendry and see that right elbow moving sideways into his back on the backswing and then back up as he delivers the cue. Too many moving parts to control.

I believe the butt of the cue should be directly under the long straight bone in the forearm and then a player needs to get to a point where he moves that forearm in a straight line and drops it straight if he happens to drop his elbow.

For most players they only way to line up the butt of the cue with the long bone in the forearm is to cock the wrist outward. In fact, (maybe putting my foot in my mouth) but I think Maguire would be a better player if he could control that wrist and keep it still (laterally) and also without any doubt in my mind Hendry would be a better player today (not in the 90's as he could control it) but TODAY if he got the right side of his body sorted out and reduced the number of moving parts down to just ONE elbow.

Terry

[The Doctor]

I understand your points Terry and agree with some of them especially the Jamie Cope one. My point however was not so much a disapproval of your idea of the best grip, as i would agree there is a better way to start if possible, my point was more to say that it is not absolutely necessary to have a perfect grip to play to the highest standard. I know Stephen McGuire very well and have pointed out many times that he turns the cue over as he squeezes but he also has in my opinion far too long a backswing and tends to decelerate. As you say, when players are young or they are timing it all well there is no problem, its when they are not doing so that these faults magnify.

[Terry Davidson]

I didn't know he has been told about it and I also know Hendry has been told about his swinging elbow by Terry Griffiths but chooses to ignore the advice of likely one of the best coaches around.

I think some of these pros have to realize what worked for them when their coordination was perfect is not going to do the business as they get a little older and it would be a bid advantage to them if they sorted out and got rid of all that excess movement and got back to the most simple cue action where the coordination is not as critical.

In both these cases I think cocking the wrist, or at least getting the back of the palm on the butt in the address position would help but then again from the pro's perspective I guess they are unwilling to try something new as what they've been doing has worked for them, especially in Hendry's case.

Too bad, as I would like to see him win a few more titles just to show it can be done by someone over 40.

Terry

[cally]

Some cracking points there terry and i have to agree with slightly cocking the wrist, i have been trying to cock my wrist lately instead of holding my wrist straight and i can defo deliver the cue straighter with my wrist 'cocked'.

I noticed i 'roll' my cue when trying to play with a straight wrist and pull the butt off line by quite a margin at times, my deliver is all over the place at times with a straight wrist, and at the end of delivery i think i pull the cue in/out at the rear. not sure now.....it is quite difficult to get used to playing with a cocked wrist consistently though after playing with a straight wrist for years. but the cocked wrist defo seems better for my game and is the way forward for my action to go...:snooker:

Plus the point about using a slightly shorter cue, defo helps me too when i am able to hold the cue at the back of the butt, a 57" cue feels much more comfier than anything over that length just don't feel quite as good in the old mitts like. i feel much more in control with a 57" cue. i'm 5'10"...

[cazmac1]

Thanks Terry and Doc, for your replies, When I joined this forum I thought I had a pretty good idea about mechanics of the game; I now know that my knowledge was limited. I wish I had taken coaching lesson years ago or even had access to information like the TSF. I know at my age I not going win the WC, but would settle for a solid game with regular 50+ breaks. One thing I can do is pass my knowledge on to my two boys who are 10 and 7 and love playing.

[Terry Davidson]

cally:

With most of my students they all have a straight wrist with almost no wrist cock and ALL of them 'roll' the cue when they re-grip the cue during the delivery.

One thing I've found that really helps get the cocked wrist into your technique is this (thanks to Shaun Murphy if you want an example). If you watch Shaun, he forms his grip before he gets down and sort of uses it like a hammer up in the air like he's going to 'club' the cueball. I think this might be a coaching tip he received as a young lad and it's become natural to him.

If you can't get this remember, you ALWAYS form your final grip on the cue while you are standing behind the shot and you should grip the cue here VERY TIGHT and just like a hammer. Then as you swing the cue over to your bridge and get down to feather, relax the grip BUT DO NOT CHANGE THE FORMATION OF THE GRIP HAND and the back of the palm should be on the butt of the cue at the address position.

If you do this it will ensure a correct wrist cock, not too severe as than may drag your elbow further into your back. The best indicationb you have it right that I can give you is you should have at least 2-3 wrinkles in the skin on the outside of the wrist joint.

As to not using a longer cue (I hesitate to call a 57" cue 'short') I believe anyone under about 6ft2in should use a 57" cue and grip the cue right at the back of the butt. Below about 5ft7in they should consider a 56" cue so they can keep their bridge arm fairly straight and be comfortable gripping the back of the cue.

If a player says he needs a 58" or 59" cue and plays better with that length then either he has very long arms or else he is setting up incorrectly with his straight leg behind the butt of the cue and not directly below his grip hand which is at the end of his vertical forearm in the address position.

The key to having it right on the wrist cock is to get the butt of the cue exactly lined up below the straight bone in the forearm.

Terry

[cally]

Nice one terry, i will try holding it very firm in standing position and relaxing as i get into position, ain't tried that before, will give that a go...

I have noticed alot of pro's getting down into the address position and then adjust the grip, i notice quite a few pro's do this...

[cazmac1]

Just want to share my thoughts. I seemed to have hit a wall in the last year and have been getting to the point where I feel like packing it all in again.
I've been back playing the game for nearly 5 years now and in that time I had a lot of ups and downs but have never got back to the level I used to play at. Years back I used to have a mean practice game but struggled to bring that into match play, yet this time round my practice game is the same as my match game crap basicly. So last night I was practicing at the club and started to hit the ball so sweet, I change a few things and they seem to be working. It might be another false dawn but I don't think so. This game is very funny in that just when your at that point where your thinking whats the point you go and have the best practice session in 5 years. I am so happy with the way I played that I have entred the Kent county cup as I feel that I have a game to take there now.
Thanks for taking the time to read about my personal quest to improve and hopefully I can do well in the KCC. Update you after the 20Th, anyone travelling down from london and whats to join me send me a pm.

[Acrowot]

I did read in Frank Callan's book, that Steve Davis used to play with the wrist cocked a little, then after winning a couple of world titles, he changed to holding his wrist straight and then won more W.C's.
:snooker:

[cazmac1]

I did read in Frank Callan's book, that Steve Davis used to play with the wrist cocked a little, then after winning a couple of world titles, he changed to holding his wrist straight and then won more W.C's.
:snooker:

That’s one of the things I changed, I've gone back to the straight wrist, this is my original grip much like SH grip, Don’t get me wrong the cocked wrist is a good grip but for me personally I feel that I'm too long in tooth to be changing my grip, this plus the fact that this grip in itself is a proven winner and arguably the most successful grip of all time.

[cally]

The most successful grip of all time...

Made me laugh.


Excellent that you have found an happy medium with your game caz, good luck in the tourney fella, look forward to hearing how you get on..:snooker:

[firefrets]

The last 8 months I've had a terrible time with my game. I've got so fed up with the inconsistency in my game and missing simple shots that I'm on the verge of giving the game up for good. For me the best thing about snooker is potting balls and making breaks.
As I'm not getting any younger and it is generally accepted as fact that your game deteriorates with age I've been thinking what’s the point. So before quitting I decided to give it one last chance so this week I've been down club practicing every night working on different things. Now it's strange because I know what the fault is with my game but have not been able to correct it. So tonight I think I finally discovered where I've been going wrong. I've booked coaching lessons with dell hill and am now really looking forward to going through the problem with him.
So what’s the reason for this post?
I would just like to share the problem with you with the view of getting feed back and hopefully some advice and too see if anyone else has had the same fault?
The fault I have is when cuing up and down the spots the white nearly always comes back up the table slightly to the right of the spots but never never to the left and when I do the long blue practice (potting in left hand pocket) I will always miss the pot to the Left of the pocket. So what I'm doing is cuing across the line of aim. So this is what I think is causing the problem. On the approach to the shot I step in and put my right leg down and then lock it, before putting the left leg down. This has the effect of rotating my hips and upper body causing the butt of the cue to move over to the left, hence cuing across the line of the shot. Now this is what I've done to correct it...

On lining up the shot I stand square on to the line of the shot.
Then when I step into the shot I avoid over exaggerating leading with the right leg and locking it when walking into the shot. Instead I walk into the shot place the right leg down, move the left leg out to the left almost parallel to the right leg, but only slightly forward. This has had the effect of stopping my hips from rotating and keeping the cue on the line of aim. I've also found that the right leg naturally locks when getting down on the shot this way.

If any one has had any experience with this I would like to have your take on this.
PS
This is the last throw of the dice.

Hi Cazmac.

Snooker is just a game. As much as we need to focus on the physical side of the game so too must we be aware of the psychological side.

There are times in our lives when we suffer psychologically, be it with the game itself, or even with life in general. Sometimes we have to dig a little deeper to find the true cause of any problem, and fixing these problems can take a little psychological help, as well as physical, be it confidence, self belief, self esteem, courage, determination, inhibitions, dealing with defeat, and indeed victory, or even the ability to get ones self in the zone.

I'd hate for anyone to leave the game who loves the game, asnd if I can help to prevent that then I will.

I once left the game, and I didn't return.

It was nearly 10 years before I picked my cue up again, and only late last year did that happen.

I hurt my back quite badly, but I suffered from depression also, not that I knew it at the time. I was a decent player too, being able to compete at any level, which makes it all the worse looking back.

Even now I can still play a bit, but now I want to help others achieve their goals, be it the younger generation starting from scratch, or older players with unanswered questions.

I teach people both for free and for reward, depending on their circumstances.

If you ever want to chat about your game, or anything else you feel may affect it, by all means drop me a pm.

I had intended leaving the forum some time ago, but each time I think about logging off, the opportunity to help someone presents itself.

I might have to break forum rules rather severely if I'm ever to escape.

[cazmac1]

thanks for the kind words firefrets. I'll just see how the next 6 months pad out and take it from there. Then I might take you up on that offer.